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 Conciliatory Muslims

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/31/488139526/muslims-in-france-attend-mass-on-gesture-of-solidarity-after-church-attack

I dont think the issue is one of them attending Catholic masses. They may have gone to a Baptist or a Pentecostal church if the recent victims had been Baptist or Pentecostal or whatever. Yet it seems there may be some concliatory Muslims out there really grieved at the dark way their religion has been mnaifesting itself. Is this perhaps one of the greatest times ever to show the forgiveness of Christ in spite of what has occurred? Or is it a time to shun them even further beacuse many are in need of shunning. Is the glass half empty or half full? A great time for evangelism or a time for greater separation? Its hard to think many many Muslims are not going to have to look into their religion once again and take another look at the writings of its chief prophet.

Meanwhile, these Muslims in France seem maybe truly conmciliatory. It doesn't chnage the error of their religion but there they are trying for peace while being grieved. Again, I don't thin the issue is that they attended masses in a Catholic setting. Is the glass half empty (they need to be shunned) or half full meaning the times in which we live may be a very great opportunity to reach out to them. Can the church of Christ endure murdeous provocation and respond in love? What if we come across a truly vexed and grieved Muslim of which there seem to be many upon many.


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David Winter

 2016/7/31 15:16Profile









 Re: Conciliatory Muslims

I haven't read the article yet, but just based on reading your post, I will say this: we should be eager to witness & share Jesus with these Muslims & show the love of Christ in genuineness & truth. Some of these Muslims potentially may not be sincere even & using this to their own advantage possibly to advance Islam, but our job is to lay down our lives & even to love and pray (& share Jesus with) for our enemies (the enemies of the cross of Christ). Don't let the Roman Catholics have The whole of this matter (for the sake of ecumenicalism or whatever), but let Born Again believers share the love of Christ & the message of Jesus with Muslims! I know there are some in the Middle East saying "ISIS has been the best Christian evangelists in the Middle East in centuries". And what they mean by that is that their barbaric & heinous acts (same as Mohammad's) have shown nominal, cultural, etc. Muslims who have had little to no Christian witness & known only Islam the true face of Islam & caused them to question if the Allah of Islam, if he calls to this barbarism, may not be the right way? And such questioning has led to MANY (more than ever in many centuries) being open to the Gospel & coming to Jesus! So let the true church of Jesus praise God for this opportunity, even as hard/scary/barbaric as it has been, to share Jesus BOLDLY, UNASHAMEDLY, & with divine Love, forgiveness & Grace extended from the place of the Supernatural in dwelling of the Spirit of God & for the sake of Christ, the Gospel, & all the lost souls decieved by Islam who need a savior in the one true God & His son, Jesus Christ our Lord!!!!

 2016/7/31 18:51
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Conciliatory Muslims

There have been numerous surveys taken in Europe, Australia and The USA where the vast majority of Muslims believe that the supreme law is Sharia and they openly confess to working at getting that system to become the law of what ever land they live in. I think that the percentages I last saw were something like 83-87 percent and so that said, while I do believe there may be a very small percent that is conciliatory, if the conditions present themselves and they become a large enough force the few moderate muslims will change their tune pretty fast. The trouble is in their whole doctrine and legal systems. They ultimately are a religion of violence laid on a foundation of a progressive doctrine of violence. I am not sure if you understand what I mean, so here is what I mean, in the koran the things written in the beginning of the book take back seat to what is written latter, so in the beginning where some of Jesus' teachings are quoted or referenced they are negated by latter writings of Mohamed because it is taught as a progressive doctrine and historically Mohamed became more and more radical in his actions and writings/teachings and less peaceful. So depending on the local cleric the peoples normally become more radical as their numbers increase, at least according to most reliable data. So while they put forward the facade
that they are with us and sorry for the actions of the "few", I honestly do not believe it. Now I didn't say not to witness to them or pray for them, just be careful not to get hood winked by a very proactive pro muslim agenda because they have a very organized Pr group world wide and christians and jews alike do not fit into their equation what so ever.


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D.Miller

 2016/8/1 9:55Profile
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 Re: I've read the Koran and I agree

/There have been numerous surveys taken in Europe, Australia and The USA where the vast majority of Muslims believe that the supreme law is Sharia and they openly confess to working at getting that system to become the law of what ever land they live in. I think that the percentages I last saw were something like 83-87 percent and so that said, while I do believe there may be a very small percent that is conciliatory, if the conditions present themselves and they become a large enough force the few moderate muslims will change their tune pretty fast./

/if the conditions present themselves and they become a large enough force the few moderate muslims will change their tune pretty fast./

I sense this is true.

/They ultimately are a religion of violence laid on a foundation of a progressive doctrine of violence. I am not sure if you understand what I mean, so here is what I mean, in the koran the things written in the beginning of the book take back seat to what is written latter, so in the beginning where some of Jesus' teachings are quoted or referenced they are negated by latter writings of Mohamed because it is taught as a progressive doctrine and historically Mohamed became more and more radical in his actions and writings/teachings and less peaceful./

I understand. The more enemies he made and had to wage war against to survive the more violent and militant he became. Pluys there is a inner civil war that has been going on in Islam since it began. Muslims kill other Muslim at an alarming rate but each sect sees the other as apostate and in need of elimination. Thus the violent beast wages war against other parts of the violent beast even as it wages war against outsider infidels.

/So while they put forward the facade
that they are with us and sorry for the actions of the "few", I honestly do not believe it./

Maybe there are a few though that are beginning to be inwardly troubled at not just a few but by the very foundations of the religion. And it's said that in the very heart of Muslim contries in the Middle East that thousands are coming to Christ.

/Now I didn't say not to witness to them or pray for them, just be careful not to get hood winked by a very proactive pro muslim agenda because they have a very organized Pr group world wide and christians and jews alike do not fit into their equation what so ever./

I agree.


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David Winter

 2016/8/1 10:15Profile









 Re:

Thanks. Yes, I am not naive to Islam whatsoever. I have been studying Islam pretty extensively over the last year or two. Joel Richardson's book, "The Islamic Antichrist" quotes all of the Hadiths (more modern commentaries of progressive revelation from Imams/Clerics since the Quran was penned) & the quotes and statements of them today. I am well aware of the infiltration methods of groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, CAIR, etc. that are "cultural jihad in suits" as opposed to the openly obvious barabaristic jihad of ISIS. I am not the least bit naive. It is actually my heart's desire to go to the Arabic Islamic world as a Gospel witness & am in the process of praying about this at this time. When I send $ for missions' works, that is where I send it, etc. All that to say I understand the implications. HOWEVER, what I am saying as well Is that while we should not be naive about such things, we should be a distinctly "salty" & focused witness to Muslims, regardless of the socio-political, geo-political, cultural implications. Our lives should be about the oppurtunities being soveriegnly laid before us by God. In a very real sense I believe, We have not sufficiently sent Gospel missions to these hard places over the centuries (over 90% of the Unengaged and unreached people are Muslim in the 10/40 window but less than 1/2 of 1% of our missionaries are sent there?), so I believe among other divine Soveriegn implicative reasons, the Lord is sending them to us in the western world. So, while we should not be naive about the "true face of Islam", what should OUR focus be? Preserving our way of life" ("he who seeks to save his life will lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake will find it" comes to mind) or to lay down our lives, be a salty witness & stand out as light in even loving and reaching out to "our enemies", & being part of a Gospel witness to a people who in large part really just want to destroy us, our faith, our culture & our way of life for the most purely antichrist religious system for the last 14 centuries in the earth?

Actually, much of the response I see out there TOTALLY reminds me of the story of the prophet Jonah. Jonah was called to preach repentance to the Ninevites. Nineveh was in the Iraqi Mosul plain, the heart land of where ISIS is established today. Jonah ran the opposite direction because he didn't want to preach repentance to these people (of ancient Assyrian descent just like Arab Muslims today) who had been so opposed to his people. A cruel & idolatrous people. He couldn't love his enemies enough to take the thought of preaching repentance to them, so he sailed for Tarshish in the opposite direction. He even was willing to jump out of a boat and commit suicide when the Lord sent a violent storm at his disobedience. But the Lord had him swallowed up & preserved & spit back up on dry land to complete this work he ran from. Even in the end, after finally doing the Lord's will in preaching to them (& they actually repented) Jonah wished he could die & showed his heart was still not totally pure. But, We who are now filled with the Holy Spirit should remember Jesus' words: "you have heard it said to love your neighbor & hate your enemies, but I say to you to love your enemies and pray for those who despitefully use you...pray for those who persecute you...", etc. And even to "rejoice and leap for joy when you are persecuted for righteousness sake, for great is your reward in heaven." Etc. So, while I do not deny or stick my head in the sand of the implications, I actually think it is part and parcel to the divine judgement, coming persecution, & coming revival & return to pure and sincere faith, & a great harvest that have been prophesied for the last several years. It fits and reveals the opportunity for all of these things simultaneously. Something to pray about and make sure our heart (& actions, speech, thoughts, etc.) is right NOW, because it is likely going to only increase significantly in the days ahead.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/8/1 10:25
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
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 Re:

Does the admonition "don't cast pearls before swine" ever come into play when it comes to witnessing? The parallel admonition about not giving holy things to dogs also comes with a warning- namely that if you do they might turn on you and tear you to pieces.


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Todd

 2016/8/1 11:04Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2219


 Re: Pride of belief versus humility of faith

I don't claim to be at the place described below regarding humility of faith but nonetheless.

Quoting,

"This morning while hearing my wife read to me of Islam's fury and intolerance of the infidel, I was reminded of the self-righteousness that is implicit in the attitude of many believers towards those that do not believe."

""Unless we see our ability to believe as amazing grace, owing nothing to ourselves, we have not yet adequately distinguished between what is possible to man and what is not, between what is 'partly' (even 'mostly') of grace, and what is 'all' of grace. Hence, we are not that far removed from those that feel such astonished outrage and intolerance towards the 'infidel', such as we see in the pride of Islam."

If we have the faith that excludes all boasting, we will weep and say with David 'who am I?' How is it possible that this should come to me? Only God has the moral ground to require faith and to condemn the unbeliever for his unbelief. On our part, we could never glory over another who is destitute of what has come to us only by a sovereign act of merciful divine intervention. Such faith as counts with God is not from hence ("not of yourselves; it is the gift of God")."

"Such faith as counts for a new creation is itself the result of a new creation, and cannot exist in the believer until it is quickened of God. The faith that raises the dead is itself a resurrection phenomenon. How then can we glory as though we did not 'receive' it? Peter's faith, though at times weak and failing, was of this kind. His ability to correctly identify Jesus did not come by 'flesh and blood'. No true living faith that counts with God can come on any lesser basis than Peter's. It must be quickened. It is necessarily beyond human power, else there would be a division of the glory. If we suppose otherwise, we build again what grace destroyed, namely, the false ground that enables the 'believer' to glory against the contemptible 'unbeliever', just as the gentile 'believer' has historically boasted against the unbelieving 'natural branches', ascribing Jewish unbelief to a special stubbornness or moral depravity that he finds less prevailing in himself. This naïve optimism concerning human nature, particularly our own, is the ground of all boasting, and any faith that is predicated on such boasting cannot stand in the judgment, which occasions Paul's "be not high minded but fear." This, because boasting is inherent in a faith that traces itself to something in man or of man."

"To find something in ourselves that makes us to differ is precisely what permits our sense of astonishment and moral outrage at the unbelief of the despised 'infidel'. While the believer knows the great and unjustifiable evil of unbelief, he also knows that it is only by the gift of grace that he has escaped the power of this overwhelming plague that has damned a world."

"In times of great distress we learn how rare and beyond man true faith really is, what pure gift it is, and how it is so to be distinguished from the far more humanly accessible surplus of beliefs that prevail nothing apart from 'the gift of this supreme grace'. Oh to believe, to really believe God! As one young brother so eloquently said, "it takes God to love God." The same is true when it comes to faith, because only Christ in us can truly believe God. This is why the coming of such faith in the hour of trial is to the desperate soul as the very appearing of Christ. Where then is glorying save in a God of sovereign mercy?"


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David Winter

 2016/8/1 11:19Profile









 Re:

TMK,
No I don't think that is a good application of that verse. If they actually had a faithful consistent witness of the Gospel, then maybe that might be the case. I can definitely see more clear application at some point with arguing with an avowed atheist who grew up in America, in church, who have heard the Gospel & rejected it consciencly etc. than applying it hastily to a people group that have in many places a 99.9%-100% Muslim population background/culture, have not met real believers very often, have not had a true, faithful Gospel witness or testimony shared with them, etc. And if everyone took those verses supplied as a whole in application to Islam & Muslims the world around, Then the faithful witness and many of the amazing testimonies of Muslims coming to Christ in what is the greatest revival in our generation by far would not be happening. Some of it is just our uncomfortableness and refusal to look at this from a spiritual perspective. And this is in my opinion the relation to stories like that of Jonah. Obviously that is one verse isolated without context, that definitely has some application but I don't think it necessarily is a broad brush for this. I mean imagine if Jim Elliot, and Adonirum Judson, and Felix Carrie and William Carey, and Samuel Zwemer, and so many other of the pioneer missionaries throughout the ages were quick to use that verse in application to not preach the gospel to the unengaged cannot reach where we would be right now on the world wide scope of missions globally. I personally agree on this subject in particular with something Joel Richardson said in sheep among wolves:

" We are no better than radical Islamic terrorists. The only difference between the most radical & wicked Islamic terrorist jihadist on earth & you & me is the mercy & Grace God gave us through the Gospel!"
Joel Richardson, Quote from the film Sheep Among Wolves

 2016/8/1 13:22









 Re:

Even the dogs eat what falls from the masters table, no? That was I think at lest part of the overall theme of the passage where the gentile lady asked Jesus for the crumbs the dogs can eat that fall from the Master's table! Jesus was moved by her faith (even though his time at that point was at least primarily for the house of Israel, not the Gentiles overall) & gave her what she asked! Jesus is moved by our faith, not just our theological
Prowess amen? Especially when it comes to praying and acting on His will in the Great commission to the uttermost parts of the earth. Faith, desire, prayer, obedience, sacrifice, & love for God, neighbor, & yes, even our enemies, etc. These are what Jesus always has acted on in his people throughout the ages.

 2016/8/1 13:53
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
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 Re:

I don't disagree at all. I always wondered about the application of those verses. Jesus said it for a reason. But I agree that someone should get a chance to reject the gospel before those verses come into play. How often or how vehemently they must object is open to question.


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Todd

 2016/8/1 14:10Profile





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