http://revsre.blogspot.com/2015/12/two-roads-out-of-time-and-into-eternity.html


This link is to a Study journal that I am working on.

I know it is different.
I know some will disagree.
BUt, I am sure it is what the Bible teaches.

Your comments would be greatly appreciated.

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Steven

You are obviously a thinker and I laud that. You have done a pretty good job with your journal and I laud that also. You must have a more than a usual amopunt of personal discipline to take time to write these things down. So not for argument's sake but for discussion I did have a few questions regarding the firsat part of your thoughts about the "Word."

Quoting,

"John 1:1 was translated to Latin then German and English with the theology that Jesus existed from before creation because He could not be Flesh, a man. BUT, Jesus was a man, He had to be a man to take our place and pay the sin debt. In a wonderful, hard to understand, God controlled mystery Jesus was both God and man, the exact extent of which I cannot explain."

I read through your reference to Tertullian and his translation three times and I kept being drawn to the part above. Especially,

"John 1:1 was translated to Latin then German and English with the theology that Jesus existed from before creation because He could not be Flesh, a man.

After having read it three times I kept coming to the same conclusion that you are challenging the common Christian view that Jesus existed before creation. Taking the toality of these comments in mind, including what came before this paragraph, do you believe God had a thought or a plan and then decided for Jesus to come into being as the One who would carry out that plan? That's a honest question from me. I'm just not clear what you are getting at here in these interesting comments. And then above you seem to be saying that the common Christian doctrine that Jesus existed before creation is wrong. Yet I may not be reading your comments correctly so, are you saying the notion that Christ existed before creation is wrong? I offer these questions in the same spirit that you said comments are welcome - civil discussion.

Thank you.

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David Winter

You read it correctly. Yes the second person of the trinity is God and self-extent before time. The MAN JESUS was born in time and place of Mary and the Holy Spirit The Literal son of God. HE was a man in every way we are. In the "God-Man union He was GOD. But the man had a beginning lived taught, Took our place on the Cross. Was raised from the dead and Glorified in Heaven. I think the problem is in understanding the God-Man. Many seem to see Him as one. There are two. God the second Person and a man the Son of God. Jesus was a real man in time and space, YES he had a beginning and a death and resurrection and was seated at God's right hand. That is what the Bible teaches, men have tried to make Jesus not be FLESH because flesh is evil.
Now so I am not a Heretic God is self-existent HE created eternity and time, God does not live in Eternity day by day He inhabits eternity Every second of time before Him present now. So in that Jesus has existed with GOD for all eternity, and appeared several times in the OT.
THE WORD in John 1:1 means a thought carried out to maturity NOT A PERSON. Simply THAT VERSE does not say Jesus is eternal. He was a real man that lived and died.

One more point PLEASE do not take an illustration of some thing men teach and don't understand as the purpose for what I wrote. THere is a lot more here that will CHALLENGE "Common" Church doctrine.

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Steven

How was Jesus a Human Being? His mother was a human being.
How was Jesus the only begotten Son of God. God was His Father.

Who created all things for Jesus and by Jesus? Who is the Word of God?

John 1:1-5 In <en> the beginning <arche> was <en> the Word <logos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> with <pros> God <theos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> God <theos>. The same <houtos> was <en> in <en> the beginning <arche> with <pros> God <theos>. All things <pas> were made <ginomai> by <dia> him <autos>; and <kai> without <choris> him <autos> was <ginomai> not <oude> any thing <heis> made <ginomai> that <hos> was made <ginomai>. In <en> him <autos> was <en> life <zoe>; and <kai> the life <zoe> was <en> the light <phos> of men <anthropos>. And <kai> the light <phos> shineth <phaino> in <en> darkness <skotia>; and <kai> the darkness <skotia> comprehended <katalambano> it <autos> not <ou>.

First word; beginning: Strong's Greek Dictionary
746. αρχη arche
Search for G746 in KJVSL
αρχη arche ar-khay'
from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

John 1:1-5 In <en> the beginning <arche> was <en> the Word <logos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> with <pros> God <theos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> God <theos>. The same <houtos> was <en> in <en> the beginning <arche> with <pros> God <theos>. All things <pas> were made <ginomai> by <dia> him <autos>; and <kai> without <choris> him <autos> was <ginomai> not <oude> any thing <heis> made <ginomai> that <hos> was made <ginomai>. In <en> him <autos> was <en> life <zoe>; and <kai> the life <zoe> was <en> the light <phos> of men <anthropos>. And <kai> the light <phos> shineth <phaino> in <en> darkness <skotia>; and <kai> the darkness <skotia> comprehended <katalambano> it <autos> not <ou>.

2nd word: with; Strong's Greek Dictionary
4314. προς pros
Search for G4314 in KJVSL
προς pros pros
a strengthened form of 4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. toward (with the genitive case, the side of, i.e. pertaining to; with the dative case, by the side of, i.e. near to; usually with the accusative case, the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated):—about, according to , against, among, at, because of, before, between, (where-)by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), X together, to (you) -ward, unto, with(-in). In the comparative case, it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.

Third word; Life: Strong's Greek Dictionary
2222. ζωη zoe
Search for G2222 in KJVSL
ζωη zoe dzo-ay'
from 2198; life (literally or figuratively):—life(-time). Compare 5590

Who was the breath of life breathed into Adam?

If all things were made by The Word, (Jesus) that had to be in beginning of God who has no beginning. This breath had to be the beginning of the World plus seven days as we know it from scripture and what we know today.

Jesus is God the Son from all eternity to all eternity.

"if you see Me you have seen the Father."

"I and the Father are One." Like Jesus Christ and I are one in spirit.

1 Peter 1:22-25 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

From the world began without end. BY the Word who liveth and abideth forever.

Is His present body eternal? If my body is to be changed to be like His, is my body eternal also?

You wrote: " THere is a lot more here that will CHALLENGE "Common" Church doctrine."

What is that?

Lastly; 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip

/That is what the Bible teaches, men have tried to make Jesus not be FLESH because flesh is evil./

I'm just speaking from my own experience of many years in the Lord yet I have never heard any orthodox teacher anywhere being afraid to make Jesus FLESH because flesh is supposedly evil. The glory and mystery of the incarnation of Christ is that indeed the Word did become flesh and dwelt among us.

I think there is a contradiction in some of what you say as illustrated below. You stated,

/ So in that Jesus has existed with GOD for all eternity, and appeared several times in the OT./

So you verify that Jesus has existed from all eternity. Then in the next sentenCe you seem to contradict that what you have just stated when you write,

/THE WORD in John 1:1 means a thought carried out to maturity NOT A PERSON. Simply THAT VERSE does not say Jesus is eternal. He was a real man that lived and died./

You say the verse John 1:1 does not mean Jesus is eternal when just before that you stated He has existed with God from all eternity.

So there's a circular type of contradiction here or something.

John 1:1 should automatically be paired with John 1:2.

1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 HE was in the beginning with God.

Verse 1:2 identifies the Word as a HE designating a person and not a thought that later came to maturity.

And why only use Tertullian as an example of a Bible translator when he was only one person who has looked into this matter? Nonetheless, verse 1:2 identifies Jesus as HE and not a thought that came to maturity. If He was just a thought in the beginning then by your own reasoning He could not be eternal yet in the sentence before you stated He has always been eternal and with God. It's got to be one or the other.

15 John bore witness of Him (the HE of verse 1:2), and cried out saying, "This was He of whom I said, "He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me." (John 1:15)

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM." (John 8:58)

2 But as for you, Bethlehem, Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler of Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity. (Micah 5:2)

Combined with John 1:1-2, the above scriptures speak loudly I think to the fact that John 1:1 is indeed speaking of a person and not a thought that later came to maturity.

6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, mighty God, ETERNAL FATHER, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

In the mystery of the triune Godhead, If Jesus was indeed the ETERNAL FATHER, then it seem a impossibility that He was once only a thought or plan that later came to maturity. More than Tertullian have looked into this. If you have seen Jesus you have seen the ETERNAL Father so in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD.

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David Winter

Flesh is not evil. Flesh is amoral. If flesh is inherently evil then the "members of our flesh" could not be tools for righteousness.

That is like saying guns are evil. Guns can be used to procure food and fight off wild beasts to protect one's family which is an act of righteousness.

Sin is evil therefore do not yield your members (flesh) to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but yield your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."


The instrument performing the sin is not the object of the evil, but rather the soul and spirit that allows the flesh to be used in the committing of the evil.

Simply proved that you do not understand the Theanthropic (God man) relationship. and that Jesus was a real man and God. This illustration has always amazed me for how people hold to an error because they cant get past the "church" teaching. Simply read the Bible it says Jesus was the Son and it says HE was God. IT also clearly says GOD Created the world and All that is in it. IT does not say the son created it.
. 2 οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν.
.... It was in beginning before the God
the antecedence here is to the logos or plan Jesus is not here.
THis could go on forever I see your position and your point. You are all teaching to traditional view of this verse, and it is not my idea to change your mind, it is only an exercise in thinking, WHAT DOES IT SAY, I of course think it says way more that the traditional teaching.
Please read and comment on ALL the work Especially the second part Satan's Counterfeit. If you understand Satan's counterfeit (ancient Babylonian mysticism) Possibly my position on John 1 will be clear.

Please do not loose the meaning of the whole over one Illustration.

Based on you Brethren not following my thought here, I will remove the Illustration from later copies of this lesson. If you do not follow my thinking other Church members will not either.

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Steven

Hi Steven

Could l ask who else holds your view?

You say: "but I am a defender of Natural Free Will making us Morally Responsible Agents."

Steven, there is no "natural goodness" which becomes the basis of a "natural morality" within a "natural theology." "There is none good, no not one" (Rom. 3:12). "No one is good, except God alone" (Luke 18:19). When mankind thinks that he can know "good" and define "good" from his own perspective alone, he ends up calling "evil good, and good evil" (Isa. 5:20), and Isaiah pronounces a woe upon those who are thus "wise in their own eyes, and clever in their own sight." (Isa. 5:21).

Evil and Good are not autonomous. They do not exist independently by themselves.

God alone is autonomous and we are but derivative creatures deriving good from the character of God or evil from the character of Satan. We cannot stand alone as "Morally Responsible Agents" as you put it.

Brother J
You changed the subject. I only said Natural Free will in the respect that GOD gave man a free will, in that respect it is natural or from God. You passed to Natural Theology a different subject.
Romans 3:12 is a reference to NATURAL MAN as Paul discusses him. Natural Man without God is not good he is LOST.
Good is an attribute of GOD it tells us something about Him. Evil is simply the opposite of Good. THink of it, words have meaning, Satan has used this you are to evil to know God for a long time to defeat us in our fellowship with God.

Please READ what I said. God made man for FELLOWSHIP and gave us enough of His image to truly fellowship with HIM.

There is a lot in traditional theology that is not only WRONG but HARMFUL.

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Steven