Alongside the real Jesus you will always have the counterfeit Jesus'. Of course the real Jesus still responds to faith today. Why wouldn't He?

Satan always seeks to discredit and obscure the real Jesus.

Blaine

My Fundamentalist 1611 KJV only version of the Bible clearly states that the
Lord is no longer doing anything to or for anyone regarding the genuine works
of the Holy Spirit as he once did.
And if John MacArthur and his pals says so who am I to argue?

I have never been completely satisfied with the cessationist view or the continuance view. I feel that the cessationist interpretation is I Corinthians 13:10 is strained at best. On the other hand if the continuance doctrine hinges on latter rain theology, as I have read that it does, that makes it highly suspect. Peter, in Acts 2, associates the Pentecost miracles with the last days so would it be correct to then say that the last days covers the time period from Acts to Christ's return? I don't see in scripture a great time of revival towards the end but rather a slide into apostasy, so would that mean that the pouring out of the Spirit has stopped or might it still be able to happen on a local level?
I am glad that you started this discussion, as it is one which I would like to learn more about.

Scott

_________________
Scott

Dear Blaine

I think I can speak about the cessationist view with a degree of knowledge, as it was in a Reformed church that I received my first in depth study of doctrine for a period of seven years.

It was in the days when I thought that Christianity was all about studying the Bible and being 'sound' (in Reformed doctrine)and reading the great teachers of it including the writings of John Calvin himself.

The church was full of 'theologians' and people who devoted themselves to the study of the word, searching the scriptures daily, and I am very grateful for the grounding that I received and the understanding of the correct method of Biblical interpretation. It has kept me from error many times. These people really knew their Bibles in depth and could quote scripture right left and centre, but also with better exegetical skills, and grasp of Greek than I have found elsewhere.

However, I began to find holes in the TULIP doctrines I was taught once I began to read beyond the scriptures that were studied in the main and beyond their proof texts. I began to see the necessity of depending on the Holy Spirit in rightly dividing the word and more than that, the necessity of knowing Christ speak directly to us if He is indeed residing within us and most of all, the necessity of obedience to that heavenly voice within.

But getting back to the cessationist view, yes indeed the scripture you have quoted is the one used, to say that the 'perfect' is the canon of scripture. They do not accept it is Jesus as the perfect in the Greek is not describing a person, it is describing a thing.

But they also say that the charismatic understanding of tongues is not the scriptural one described in Acts, because since NT times, it has only existed amongst fringe groups who were to say the least, a bit dodgy and as Scott has said, we have been in the last days since then and the end has not come as forcast.

Added to this is the fact that tongues are only spoken about in 1 Cor. and nowhere else, and throughout church history, the greatest sainst never even mentioned them let alone speak in them according to the modern version.

They do however accept miracles on the whole, and that God heals today. But they are firmly against any speaking directly to men as they will quote Hebrews 1:1 on Christ being the only means by which God speaks and that is through the scriptures.

So it seems that we have only two choices of understanding the 'perfect' but that is not so, as there is another one, and the one that was taught especially during the holiness movement which has died out with its teachings.

According to that version, the perfect is the perfection of the believer. When that perfection comes, what was known in limited ways, that is prophecy and knowledge, are now seen in their fullness. Confusion arises over tongues. The scripture says 'ceases' and a different word is used in the Greek to the 'fail' of the partial, that is the partial is completed. Tongues were not accepted in holiness times apart from in cases where human languages were used miraculously as in Acts, to spread the gospel where the lnaguages were unknown.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

These verses describe the state of perfection whereby a mn is given by grace, the fullness of the stature of Christ and has the mind of Christ in the glorified state.

I have found that very few can discuss the subject of tongues without becoming angry and upset so I do not do it anymore. I just wanted to lay out the case for side which is generally not acknowledged, and which is stuck between the two opposing sides, that are not the full picture.

Bear with me, brothers and sisters, and read the blog post I did a year or two ago. Please examine it and take what good you can from it. It was not intended to attack the sufficiency of scripture but to emphasise the experiental side of believing the scripture. I hope it may be a source of encouragement to some:

"A few words of explanation as to my religious background to lay a foundation for the concerns I have around cessationism and denominationism
I was brought up quite conservatively,in a protective environment and attended a Methodist Sunday school, was later "confirmed" in the same church and afterwards called up to national service with the South African Defence Force,where I had a powerful spiritual experience while attending a bible study held by an officer in the camp where I attended, an experience that resulted in me being truly "born again" I will not go into the experience right now but suffice to say that I was filled with the Holy Spirit and my heart so flooded with the love and affection of Christ that for the first time in a long time I was compelled to phone my father and declare to him and my mother,with tears, how much I loved them!
This overwhelming sense of God's nearness and love continued through the night and I can sincerely say,I was never the same again! I truly saw life through new eyes,was absolutely amazed at the beauty of God's creation and had a strong desire to share my newfound faith and joy with others;as with many others, very zealously and without much wisdom!
In short,God had come near to me and I KNEW it!
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭15‬ KJV)
After this experience I was completely changed as far as ambitions and plans were concerned for the future and "chose" to attend a bible school after national service,working during the day and attending classes at night from Monday's to Thursdays. It so worked out that the school I attended was of the Pentecostal/charismatic persuasion and their teaching was very Word based, while also emphasizing the power of the Holy Spirit. A lot of the teaching was by men known today as the Word Faith teachers.
I have been saddened and grieved by some of the comments I have read on social media like Twitter,most made by Christian brothers I choose to follow but who sometimes have a drastically different viewpoint from mine. Most of these seem to come from the Baptist denominations or other conservative evangelical groups, are very concerned about the letter of scripture and scriptural accuracy and are very adept at pointing out heresies,usually from the so-called "charismatic " and word faith camp.
I will not concern myself in this writing with the excesses of these movements and the heretical teachings, some of which I agree with my brothers from another church mother!
Excesses should not stop us from seeking the good way,though.
Where the genuine exists,so does the counterfeit.
I have walked with God for about 29 years now and ,of course, have grown a lot in knowledge and understanding and also agree with the brothers who are like the Bereans, who check and research scripture to validate whatever another person teaches, thereby discerning truth from error.
Thus I have begun to understand, for example, that "tithing" is not a New Testament teaching to the gentile church and is often misused by church leaders to bring their people into bondage, when the whole teaching of the apostles emphasizes personal freedom balanced by personal responsibility in doing all things in love and in consideration of the weaker brother. Thus you will find preachers and teachers of "grace" who will still proclaim tithing as a law to the church,as well as other disputable doctrines such as the keeping of the Sabbath,even though Paul clearly states "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16-17‬ KJV)" I myself was so indoctrinated with the tithe teaching that I judged my Christian brothers for their disobedience when they did not tithe and considered whatever weakness or frailty that assailed them a direct result of their non-tithing, a curse! Lord, forgive us our foolishness!
I fear,though,that the home a baby is born in and is taught in,can so cloud his judgement and influence his perspective,that he can grow up believing his point of view is THE correct one and he views every other viewpoint or experience through these glasses of discernment,according to his framework of truth and not necessarily the truth as taught by the New Testament Apostles and Prophets and as described in the book of Acts, the Epistles etc.
This is my problem with denominations.
The moment I identify myself according to denominational affiliation or according to a specific spiritual movement I somehow make my "club" the exclusive one and the sole keeper and dispenser of truth!
Hear what Paul says to the Corinthians
"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1‬:‭10-18‬ KJV)"
Jesus,our Lord,most certainly did not say He will build a certain denomination,but He said He would build His church,and the gates of hell would not prevail against it! The way some of my evangelical brethren from traditional denominations speak of the "other" side can quite easily give the impression that they are not brothers and are probably not really children of God! And the "other" side reciprocate!
Do we consider the effect of this divisiveness on "outsiders"? Those we are called and commissioned to evangelize? Do we evangelize them to save them from an eternal death or to join our little club of correctness? This is just sad and must be repented of,brothers! We quote:"by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone" but do we really act like that. Let us come out of denominationism and into community of faith!
"And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭16-22‬ KJV)"
It seems there are a lot of people being zealous for their house instead of the house of God! Who are you,brother,to judge another man's spiritual experiences?
Is spiritual experience something of the past? What does it mean to be filled with the Spirit?
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (‭Acts‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬ KJV)"
Was that only meant for the apostles?
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬ KJV)"

"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭4, 15-18‬ KJV)"

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭4, 15-18, 38-39‬ KJV)"
"And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. (‭Acts‬ ‭4‬:‭23-31‬ KJV)"

Is this the church of today? When we are threatened by persecution what do we do? Where are the power filled prayers shaking the house of God? Where are the fresh in fillings of the Spirit resulting in a bold and fearless testimony?

Are you really convinced in your heart, by scripture and the Holy Spirit, that the first witnesses had the Spirit helping them,confirming the Message with signs following, but all we have is the Bible itself, and well thought out arguments? When you tell an infidel the truth from the bible,will he not ask:"Where is the God of Elijah and Elisha and Peter and Paul and ...?"
"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭1-5‬ KJV)"

How can we claim to be Spirit filled people and never say a word in our assemblies? No prophecying (inspired utterances declaring the glorious attributes of our Lord and Saviour) .The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus! No faith filled, fiery, powerful prayers!
Read 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 after removing the denominational glasses!
When we come together, each one.........!
"Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. (‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭17-21‬ KJV)"
"Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. (‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5‬:‭16-22‬ KJV)"

What! Despise not prophesyings? Quench not the Spirit?

All of you brothers so proud of your knowledge, the closed canon and Sola Scriptura etc, are you following the teaching and admonition of the apostles? Or are you quenching the Spirit without realizing it?
Are you satisfied with the temperature of your churches,your assembling together? Are you aware that the living God is amongst you in power,as HIs special called out people, or are you just a nice little club,patting each other on the back for your superior knowledge and congratulating one another on not being so "foolish" as to believe God still actually speaks in and through His people and actually still does mighty works by their hands?

Have you ever asked the Lord to use you as His witness? To touch someone else's life through you? Has He changed? Does He not heal, deliver, do miracles any longer?
What would your church do if the demoniac of Gadara ran into your o so orderly meeting on Sunday?
Call the psychologist? Run for your lives? Reason with him?
Or are there no more demon possessed people that need deliverance? Or can God not trust our church to bring deliverance to those bound by evil powers because we deny the power given to us as the church in the Name of Jesus?

I am sorry if I sound facetious but that is exactly how silly it looks to me.

I believe any sincere,healthy believer desires to be an effective witness for His Lord. Sooner or later he will begin to realize that knowledge alone is not enough. We need power from on high to do the work He has called us to do! To think any other way is to be in denial of the truth as revealed in the New Testament.

When a group of sincere believers get together to seek the Lord for His guidance,He will guide and He will speak and He will empower!
"Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. (‭Acts‬ ‭13‬:‭1-4‬ KJV)"

How did the Holy Spirit speak? Audibly? Inwardly? Magically moving the pages of the scroll and highlighting some words?
It doesn't say,however I don't think I would be far off in saying He probably prophetically spoke through one or two or even three of those present there.

What are we missing out on today? How could we not be used more effectively if we consecrated ourselves to Him,waited on Him together,ministering to Him through our prayers and our worship and allowing His Spirit to speak as in olden days!

Just sayin'😌

God bless all who take the time to read these words and receive them in the spirit intended.

William

_________________
William

@StirItUp

I really enjoyed your post. I'm glad I took the time to read it. Last week I really had 1 Corinthians 2:4 on my brain along with Elijah. I kept thinking about the “demonstration of the spirit and of power”. It even took me back down my memory lane (good times)...then up to date! God is good and He hasn't changed. I can't imagine what my life would be like without the Holy Spirit and His gifts and I'm glad I don't have to. Sometimes I wonder do some of us really not understand why there is no great outpouring of the Spirit the way that some want to see? Really?!!

The problem i have with theses bias type of threads is that ,it seems to always be implyed that one must speak in toungs and speak prophecy,to be filled with ghe spirit , history tells us that that is not the case ,the first and second great awkening ,and other revivles never had this sort if thing , saints who were much more in touch with god then us fourm junkies ,moved powefully in the spirit , with out expressings all the sign gifts , to deni this is to be plain aragent,

I personly believe ,that all the gifts cessed....


























No i got you there ,,,lol



I also believe in all the gifts as mentioned in the bible ,,,but paul does say covert the gifts of prophecy for instance, somif one does not believe and covert these gifts ,one wil never experence those gifts ,,but that has nothing to do with the baptisim of spirit ,,if one coverts that they will recieve that ,on its own ,acording to your faith let it be done unto you ...


Blain insead of being all cryptic tell us who these ,cessationists are ,

Last i checked this forum is riddled with arminian carasmatics , who love to pat one another on the back ....💏. 😳

Julius21 wrote the quote but I'm sure there might be more who agree with him so I write to you all...

_________________
Lisa

Yes, Lysa, if Jesus Christ was the object of that verse there would be no miracles in the book of Acts or throughout the world since then up to now. It is really kind of absurd as you consider the whole counsel of God, that Jesus Christ is really not the same, yesterday, today and forever.

How much more, in this church world of unbelief do we need the power of God, today?

Paul is speaking about the seconed comeing of christ , and as paul said when he comes we wil know just as we are known, vs 12