... For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we did not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation. After it was first spoken through the Lord it was confirmed to us by those who heard. God also testified with them, both by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will...Hebrews 2:1-4


Is God still confirming his gospel today by signs and wonders and various miracles and Gifts of the Holy Spirit? If not. Please give your reason from the scripture.

I have redone the thread title and the OP tell kess controversial.

Those who hold to a cessationist view build their entire arguement from 1 Cor. 13:10 where it says, "when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with". According to them, the "perfect" refers to the Canon of scripture which arrived in the 4th century and now there supposedly is no "need" for spiritual gifts.

Verse 9 says, "We know in part and we prophesy in part."

Verse 12 says, "For now we see in a mirror darkly, but then FACE TO FACE.

So when the scriptures talk about "the perfect" coming, it is not talking about a THING, but a time when EVERYTHING is perfect. Are we there yet? Of course not. When is it coming? When we meet FACE TO FACE with Jesus at His return.

-Daniel

The reason I'm opening up this thread is that I believe there is anti Holy Spirit bias in this forum. There are those people such as myself who believe the Holy Spirit does work in the same age as He did in Acts. I believe that I could readonably support this view from the scriptures.

However there are those who are raising concerns about deception and deceiving spirits. To see if we actually listen to the Holy Spirit. We are almost accused of listening to demonic voices.

Thus I am opening up this thread for a well-reasoned discussion. In other words let us talk about the doctrine of cessationism.

I do believe there are those in this forum who believe that the Holy Spirit does not work in the way he did work in Acts. Would you please come forward and state your case from the word of God?

I'm not trying to be contentious or provoke an argument. But I want us to lay our cards on the table. I do believe there are some of you who believe that people such as myself are being deceived. Then if you believe this please State your case from the word of God.

Some have suggested in this forum that I do not believe in the scriptures. Anyone who has seen my posts particukarly, my devotional thead regarding the persecuted will know that those posts are filled with scripture.

But let us say we agree on Sola Scriptura. That we believe that all doctrine must be established by scripture. I ask those of you who believe that the Holy Spirit does not confirm his gospel by signs and wonders. Will you please State your case from the word of God.

So come now let us reason together. Please state your case for cessationism.

Where are the multiple witnesses to that scripture? One scripture for such an important issue of which there are many scriptures in favor of the opposite.

That which is perfect has come, Jesus Christ and last I read He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

... Love never fails, but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away, if their tongues, they will cease, if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face, now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known...1 Corithians 13:8-13

I have to admit if I were a self-respecting cessationist I'd be hard-pressed to defend my position from the verses above. The context does not suggest the canon of scripture. But I want to be fair to the cessationist position and look at their arguments in particular in light of the above text. So I will be googling cessationist websites to see how the they use the above scriptures to establish their position.

One argument I have heard regarding the word "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is cross referenced back to Psalm 19:7,

... the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul...

The cessationist says that the perfect in 1st Corinthians 13:10 is the same perfect is found in psalm 19:7. That's the perfect cannon has come. As such tongues prophecy, and knowledge have been done away.

I ask the cessationists in the Forum an I articulating this argument correctly? Please feel free to correct me if I am not articulating your position accurately.

Simply my thoughts.

Blaine

A dry loaf of bread is becoming more and more appealing to me verses the insanity in the pseudo spiritual world of the mystics and outright crackpot teachings coming out these camps. Will the real Jesus please stand up?

Dear bro.,

I do not know what the word 'cessationisim' means,as well as many more
words that are called out on the forum.

But may I humblely say,what I have been taught by our Lord,and confirming
it through His Word is what I know,....and it can never be taken away.

Satan has been deceived and deceiving since he and his angels were cast out of heaven.
And he has been deceiving down through the ages In every conceivable
manner / way.

Tozsu,is talking about deception in another post,...quite interesting.
And who can know " Truth" ?
Truth is The Word,...God is The Word,Who Lives within us,...Spirit / Holy
Ghost....

There was a post a while back,titled ( I believe) "If Satan Deceiveth the whole world,then who can be exempt ?"
Taken from ,(Rev.12:9,..."Satan,who DECEIVETH the whole world,....")
He would deceive the very elect,if that were possible.

Question for us: Are we the elect ? If we are the elect of God,then,we have
what it takes,LIVING within,...and with the keeping of OIL in our lamps,to decern his deception,and to flee from it.....Though,he is very sly,even in the little matters.

I believe,there are three things of greatest importance,that there is real deception going on in.

*The gospel,( what it is per The words of Jesus

*Grace,(What Grace is,...(the meaning of Grace as per the Word of God )

* Salvation,...( is it a one time,or is it a continuation,..daily ?
( we know when we are initually saved,...an intrance has been made by
Repentance and through His Precious Blood)

**And ,I believe it all stems from the understanding of The kingdom of God.

people really get upset many time when you talk about these things.
Perhaps it is because they have a SET way,...."this is how I have always heard it,".....".this is what my parents,and my grandparents before them believed / taught."...
But 1Jn.2:27,Tells us, "But the anointing which ye have received of Him
abideth in you,and ye need not. That any man teach you; but as the same annointing teacheth you of all things,and is Truth,and is no lie,and even as
it hath taught you,ye shall abide in Him."
( then we will know the true gospel when we hear it preached.)

We must / needs be ,get back to seeking God (the kingdom of God),
and to SEE how He SEES everything.To look through His eyes to see as He sees. ...to seek His face,is to look through His eyes to see how He sees in all matters.


So afraid,I have been toooo bold,
But truly in loving kindness I speak,

Loving you all,
In Jesus' love,

-----------------
elizabeth

Brother I appreciate your sentiments about those we would call the chrismaniacs. As in anything there are abuses and excessive.

But do the abuses and excessive of some discount an authentic working of the Holy Spirit today. I'm speaking in those areas of healings, visions and dreams, prophetic utterances, words of knowledg, healings, etc.

Brother I do not know your position on the gifts of the Spirit. But do you know of any particular scripture that says that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, more like the sign gifts, have ceased in this day and age.

My sister you may be as bold as tou wish in this thread. Your posts are always filled with grace. And basically I'm in agreement with the heartthrob of your posts.

I apologize for the use of theological terms. The word "cessationist" means that certain gifts of the Holy Spirit are not operating in this day and age. That would be gift such as tongues, the working of miracles, healings, prophetic utterances, words of knowledge etc.

The argument goes that these gifts were merely given to confirm the gospel. Since we have the complete Bible. These gifts are no longer necessary.

I have noticed in recent weeks there seems to be and anti Holy Spirit bias in the forum. Thus I was trying to open up this thread as a discussion to establish from the word if the Holy Spirit has ceased operating the way he did in the book of Acts.

I realize that when I speak of these things people do get upset. But I'm simply asking that those who do not believe that the Holy Spirit is working as he did in Acts to show their case from the word of God.

My sister I hope this makes sense. But I do agree. We do need to be discerning of deception. And to test all things will be to confirm them by the scriptures.

Your brother in Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:5-7 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Who is the Giver?

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Who works in the believers distributing the gifts of the Spirit? "AS HE Wills"

I can seek the "greater gifts" but only find if the Holy Spirit severally gives it to me as He wills for the upbuilding of the The Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

There is a more excellent way, which make the gifts less needed.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

All of 1 Cor 13 until that which is perfect comes. There is only One who is perfect and is come and is yet still coming.

Jesus Christ has come in me, that is His Spirit is now my spirit, but I can only see Him darkly as through limo windows, yet I know He is there. He is yet to come and I will see Him Clearly as I am now seen by Him. That is, "which is Perfect comes", I will know Him as He knows me. Falling on my face with tears of Joy, Praise God, what a vision.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Agape Charity (Love)

In Christ: Phillip

_________________
Phillip