Poster | Thread |
| Saving Christianity from Empire | | SI participants:
I am just finishing this book and it is the best I have read in many years. It is by Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer.
A brief summary:
The author maintains that Jesus call to love enemies and be peacemakers can not be reconciled with U.S. conduct during its recent wars, if any wars. Many people today react with a love it or leave it attitude which apparently applies to both church and country, since these interventions of late were conducted to preserve Christian values and save civilization. Nelson-Pallmeyer is not about to abandon Christianity nor was he willing to allow his country to betray principles and harm itself and others without determined protest. Hence the book. Saving Christianity from Empire examines four central themes which seem to be the principles which are distorted and used in conducting so much of our bellicose foreign policy. From the Introduction. Perhaps Howard Zinn said it best, At a time when Christian fundamentalists see the extension of American power in the world as God-given, [this book] is especially welcome. In clear, strong language it demolishes the religious justification for imperialism and brings to the fore the best of the Christian heritagethe moral imperative for a nation to love and respect its neighbors. Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer is Assistant Professor of Justice and Peace Studies at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Bubbaguy |
| 2005/5/26 20:56 | | AndrewBruce Member

Joined: 2005/4/12 Posts: 23 Blythewood, SC
| Re: Saving Christianity from Empire | | I think you must have missed the point for war. We should always/only go to war to protect our nation. It is true that we as Christians are to turn the other cheek and to love our neighbors but our government has the Biblical responsibility to protect those who are under its laws. We are to forgive as individuals those who attack us, but our judical government has the authority from God the Father to see that justice is done. That's why we have a government. If our government wasn't obligated to protect the weak and ensure justice for all under its authority great and small then tell me, what is it for? Without a government there to enforce the certain inalienable rights that we as humans have from God then we would be at the mercy of many wicked people like Stalin, Hitler, Bin Laden and Hussien. _________________ Andrew Bruce
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| 2005/5/26 21:22 | Profile |
| Re: | | AndrewBruce. Read the book. During the Iran-Iraq war, the US supported Suddam Hussein and supplied Iraq with much of the armaments that are being used against us today. We put him in power and kept him in power because he was 'useful' to us. During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan the US supplied arms and financed Ossam Bin Laden. The US CIA supported terrorists throughout central America and is responsible for the torture and deaths of thousands upon thousands of farmer peasants because they were followers of Christian liberation theology. We supported and put in place the murderous Ferdanan Marcos in the Philiipines. We supported the murder of millions of Vietnam civilians in order to fight "communism" when there was no threat to the US. The US supported and aided horrible murders like Johnathan Mubutu in Zaire. The list goes on and on and on and on and is a litany of horror, deciet, torture and mass murder. The US is complicit or directly reponsible for more terrorism and murder/killing than any dictatorship/authoritarian regeime in History, beginning with the murder of hundreds of thousands of Native Americans. This is our legacy and if others follow after it we have only ourselves to blame. We've made the bed, stolen vast sums from the third world poor and now blame outsiders for our hated place in the world. US foreign policy is so dispicable as to condemn our country into hades itself. We have no excuses if others attack us. They are only playing the game by the rules we established, which is take everything we can get without pity or mercy. Surely God hates these actions and we deserve what we get.
Bub |
| 2005/5/26 23:29 | | philologos Member

Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
This is our legacy and if others follow after it we have only ourselves to blame. We've made the bed, stolen vast sums from the third world poor and now blame outsiders for our hated place in the world.
I am not going to comment on how this addresses the US but you remember us? we were the big kids on the block before you got here. We have pubs older than your country. ;-)
This seems to be the pattern for any ultimate super power. Charlemagne, the Brits and now the US. There is a pattern which associates 'success' with God's approval. With 'success' come many benefits in life and culture and as thinking Christians wonder at their material 'blessing' in comparison with so many their personal gratitude turns to the hunt for a theology to support it. In the Victorian era we produced a theological oddity called British Israelism; apparently Queen Victoria was taken with it. It was based on the monstrous assumption that the British (Berith-Eth) the people of the Covenant were the lost tribes of Israel or Ephraim at the least.
The Queen, her government and the Christians began to think in terms of 'national destiny'. A British Prime Minister, Disraeli, who was a baptised Jew, wrote a novel in which the land of Israel was restored to a nation of Israel. It became a script for British policy in the Victorian period. The terrible pogroms of the 19 and early 20th Century kick started Theodore Herzl (provoked by the Dreyfus Affair) and the political Zionists; all of whom were atheists. Herzl's phrase 'if you believe it need not be a dream' became the slogon. Britain began to see itself as part of a divine destiny. I don't know how well you folks over there know the words of the British national anthem?God save our gracious Queen, long live our noble Queen, God save the Queen! Send her victorious, happy and glorious, long to reign over us, God save the Queen!
Thy choicest gifts in store on her be pleased to pour, long may she reign: may she defend our laws, and ever give us cause to sing with heart and voice God save the Queen!
Nor on this land alone, but be God's mercies known from shore to shore: Lord, make the nations see that men should brothers be, and form one family the wide world o'er.Not one Brit in 10,000 has ever heard the last two verses, but the militant imperialism of the first verse finds part justification in the 'kingdom of heaven' of the last verse. There was an ancient pattern for this; Oliver Cromwell was also intent on building the 'kingdom of heaven' worldwide through the agency of England's colonies.
I once insulted an American friend quite unknowingly. I won't tell you the joke, but I discovered he was offended because my 'joke' questioned the 'God's destiny for America' theology to which he held; it was tantamount to blasphemy.
So what can a European, grateful for USA intervention in the 20th Century, say to American Christian in the 21st Century? It would be presumption to attempt the exercise but would be along the lines of encouraging them to think more in terms of American Christians than Christian Americans. The final noun in each of these patterns will determine your theology; be watchful. _________________ Ron Bailey
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| 2005/5/27 3:27 | Profile | AndrewBruce Member

Joined: 2005/4/12 Posts: 23 Blythewood, SC
| Re: | | Amen Philologos! I agree exaclty with what you have said. There are many American Christians where I live and I sometimes find myself reminding them that this is not our home...
Bubbaguy- What are you talking about? I said nothing in the support of the American Government or in some of the descicions that have been made past or present. The trail of tears was a horrible tradgedy that should be spoken of more today. I responed to your post to point out the fallacy of the beliefs found simply in the little introduction of the book in question.
Once again you skim read what I have written and go off on your next post ranting and raving about things that have really nothing to do with what I said. _________________ Andrew Bruce
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| 2005/5/27 8:01 | Profile |
| Re: | | a sample quote:
"It took hundreds of years for Christianity to move from being a non-violent, minority religion persecuted by empire to being a violent, official religion of the Roman Empire. Nonviolence eventually gave way to just war as the church sold its soul in exchange for a seat at the table with the powerful. Jesus Christ replace Mithras, the Roman God and guardian of Roman troops, and took over his birthday, December 25. The rejection of nonviolence and embrace of a pro-imperial trajectory led dominant Christianity to become the servant of violent empire, eventually including U.S. empire."
Bub |
| 2005/5/27 10:42 | |
| Re: Saving Christianity from Empire | | Quote:
[the book] demolishes the religious justification for imperialism and brings to the fore the best of the Christian heritagethe moral imperative for a nation to love and respect its neighbors. Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer is Assistant Professor of [b]Justice and Peace Studies[/b] at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minnesota.
One feels a true Christian may be in a good position to determine 'justice'. I mean this, honestly.
But, in the light of the 'justice' God gave Jesus and the early Christians.....duh?
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our judical government has the authority from God the Father to see that justice is done. That's why we have a government. [b]If our government wasn't obligated to protect the weak and ensure justice for all under its authority great and small then tell me, what is it for?[/b]
Please forgive my skepticism, if necessary.
Do you really believe any government, even a nominally Christian government, delivers any of this for anything other than its own sake?
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Without a government there [b]to enforce the certain inalienable rights that we as humans have from God[/b]
Surely the only inalienable right we have from God is that of falling at His feet and worshipping Him with every fibre of our being... and some?
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then we would be at the mercy of many wicked people like Stalin, Hitler, Bin Laden and Hussien.
But if you were a Christian under one of these regiemes, would not you have to believe that God had your best at heart, as you suffered and possibly died for His sake?
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as thinking Christians wonder at their material 'blessing' in comparison with so many their personal gratitude turns to the hunt for a theology to support it.
As has been pointed out, this is history repeating itself.
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"Nonviolence eventually gave way to just war as the church sold its soul in exchange for a seat at the table with the powerful."
Isn't this always the problem? We are tempted to get off our knees from talking with the Lord, and join the talking-shops of the world! Often this deprives individual Christians of spiritual resources - the abundance of God's supply of every sort of [i]need[/i] - while the world pays lipservice to their stance and the local church is conned into believing the world will deliver - instead of a representative being sent with an even larger prayer-backing than previously.
I am reminded of the beginning of Peter's first epistle. Why are we not more ready to run, or stand? 1 Peter 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, [b]to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 [u]Elect[/u] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father[/b], through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [b]Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.[/b] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 [b]To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven FOR YOU, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation[/b] ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That [b]the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ[/b]: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 [b]Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls[/b]. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you...'
Is not the command 'Follow THOU me'? May the end of my faith [b]be[/b] the salvation of my soul.
May we all be skeptical of delegating any responsibility for the appearance of (my) (your)Christianity, to another, even a government which cries 'Lo here.', 'Peace' and 'Safety'.
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| 2005/6/25 11:44 | | roadsign Member

Joined: 2005/5/2 Posts: 3777
| Earthly vs eternal kingdom | | As a Candadian, I find it very refreshing to read your humble acknowledgements. Often I hear comments about Americans worshipping their nation and its leaders, trusting their nation to protect them. I can honestly say that not everyone is that way.
I don't really have a right to say much, because I did not read the book that Bubbaguy has recommended, (It sounds very good) but he got me thinking.
Thankfully there are people around who walk with their eyes open, and who are not afraid to publish their observations. It may "burst the bubble" for many, but that must happen in order to bring the people of a strong, proud nation to humble repentance.
I think of the ancient Israelites, and later the Jews in Jesus day, who assumed that because they were God's chosen people, he would protect them always and give them a nation. But he never promised that. Instead, he promised an eternal Kingdom of true believers. He also promised judgment if they strayed from him. (So much for the lovely little Sunday School song: "Every promise in the Book is mine.") Every great nation that has ever existed came to an end at some point - because of sin - God's judgment. I don't think God has changed.
God has never been at the mercy of ruthless dictators and threatening nations, and neither are we - unless we do not trust in God. Then we are left to rely on our own strength.
It seems to us that many think that God is for them, even though they may not be living under his authority.
"If God be for us, who can be against us."
That makes me wonder, if this is so, wouldn't there be modern day counterparts of such miraculous deliverances as Gideon and his 300, or Jehosephat and his singers, the three men in the fiery furnace, Peter and the opened prison gates... etc etc. If God is against us because of his wrath and judgment (whether Americans or Canadians or otherwise) then no amount of armament will protect us. The only place of deliverance from enemies is at the foot of the cross - humbly admitting sins, and surrending all idols.
Here is some more enlightening reading: [url=http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/jessica.html]Letters to Jessica [/url] Diane _________________ Diane
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| 2005/6/25 13:32 | Profile | crsschk Member

Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 9192 Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Apt time to make mention | | Quote:
I am not going to comment on how this addresses the US but you remember us?
Almost hate to cut it short at that point as the rest of this is very well said. But it is good in that we keep seeing these things coming up here.
It's redundant to some but to others that are newer around here, this needs to be said.
This site is not geared towards politically wrangling for one. Nor is it welcoming to be bringing in conspiracy theories, badgering endless debates of a political nature and especially the forgotten fact that America is not the only country on the face of the earth, nor is it alone represented here. Furthermore as to Christianity this is also well stated:
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but would be along the lines of encouraging them to think more in terms of American Christians than Christian Americans. The final noun in each of these patterns will determine your theology; be watchful.
To use an analogy. A bit tongue in cheek but not without a lot of truth to it, a nudging about "California drivers" is often heard. Being one doesn't necessitate that I drive like one in the sense of the stereotype being poked fun at. (If you were not to believe the truth of this, just come on out here when it's raining, it's either Mario Andretti where it's possible or it's 15 mph on the freeway, everybody panics) I am exaggerating the point, but this site is comprised of many believers from all over the world. Many denominational constructs and upbringings (and hopefully out-bringings from some of it).
To be bringing these things up without consideration for the whole is to lose perspective in many forms. Why does it not seem odd that we don't hear more about the politics of Africa or the UK or Canada or China? Frankly am glad because this is far removed from the thrust of this site and Christianity as many of us would believe it to be understood. Of course there is room for things to be discussed, but am weary of seeing these things especially always coming from an American perspective. It is more reaching than that in this penchant toward a American Christianity as if it was some version different than the rest of the world.
Personally and hesitated to even bring it up, what difference does it make to be caught up in so much that we have not all the facts on, is constantly being projected and opinionated and always ends up in futile speculations and bellyaching with no results?
What pray tell does this have to do with Jesus? With revival, with the deep heart cuttings of who we are at the core of our beings? Where do we find any of this type of thing in scripture, this side of the cross? Surely we can draw inference from many things out of the scriptures but am reminded of a message from Jim Cymbala and I searched earlier for it, but his thoughts stuck, it was something on the order of just this, all this political and governmental wrangling:
Am paraphrasing here, but he was saying "[i]Where do we find Paul crying out 'Oh Cesar's a homosexual, what will we do?' The Romans are terrible barbarians, we must do something[/i]'... Leave them alone, who cares what they do, we have enough of our own problems."
And I would agree. Don't we have a hard enough time as it is with [i][b]ourselves[/b][/i]? With what the Lord requires of us? With just getting down to the basics of scripture and the irony that all these things can bring up out of ourselves with all the divisiveness and hatred and pitting one against the other? Isn't that telling [i][b]enough[/b][/i]? Isn't it just as telling that a matter of prayer is harder to come to terms with and discuss than to launch off into the political arena with a bazillion opinions?
What about the persecuted church, that which we know nothing of, us poor Americans. Why doesn't this issue get more ink? I think it is in part because there is a large segment that just doesn't want to look at it, so much easier to go off on endless tangents of speculation that gets the dander up and grieves a lot of people that come through here. And again what of them? Does all this not matter to the those that want to keep bringing this up? Does it not ever occur to you that not only are there those represented from other countries here, but what of those who peer in on these things? Is this what the Lord died for?
And what of history? As Ron alluded to, what of the history of the church and that in other countries? Don't think it needs to be broad brushed in any manner but the world is much bigger than America and so is the reach of this site. Some perspective is needed. _________________ Mike Balog
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| 2005/6/25 16:27 | Profile | letsgetbusy Member

Joined: 2004/9/28 Posts: 957 Cleveland, Georgia
| Re: Saving Christianity from Empire | | In all honesty, I have only read part of the posts, and skimmed through the long ones. I have been in the Marine Corps Reserve for a while, deployed to Middle East, etc. I don't worship this country, I worship my God. Remember that we have access to these computers, internet lines, homes, etc, because many unsaved (and some Christian) men and women paid for your freedom with their blood.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
Notice that the most often mentioned job in the New Testament is the soldier. Jesus said of the centurion of Matt 8:10, "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
America is not perfect, that's why Jesus is coming to set up his kingdom. I do love my country, yet I fear my government. We must remember that America is not the government that rules it, but the citizens that live in it. God told the Jews that he spared them not because they were good, but because the neighboring peoples were exceedingly wicked.
Romans 13 shows how the military is ordained just as the church and the family are in Scripture. The judge of all the earth will bring all to justice in the end.
Please read the following from 1 Peter 2:
[13] Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; [14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. [15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: [16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. [17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
_________________ Hal Bachman
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| 2005/7/21 0:23 | Profile |
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