| Re: |
Amen. I can concur with many of the thoughts shared as one who has been in a house fellowship for the last 4.5 years too (our first run at one was about 10 years ago now). But there is a waiting period going on in secret places right now in the western church. I believe that with All my heart.
I tried to explain I wasn't minimizing the hearing of the Word in my post. I as one who was born again in a solitary cell, with no preacher, etc. just me, a Bible, the present spirit of God, & a cry to heaven of surrender answered with a powerful tangible manifestation of God's Spirit & light in that cell, peace flowing like a river for the first time in 23 years, & a changed heart. Not minimizing the Word or the hearing. Not AT ALL! Just that the opposite extreme sometimes places the reading of the scriptures on equal plane as the manifest presence of the Spirit of the Living Christ. I know the Logos (written Word) is the life infused testimony of the Rhema (revelatory Word) & the Pneuma (Spirit) by which we are Born again
| 2016/6/2 12:25|
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Jesus explained all the typologies in the OT about Himself (throughout OT), the Kingdom of God (many books), Salvation (Genesis), Baptism (Genesis), Resurrection (Job), Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Joel), etc., which were formerly concealed from most men. Just as He open the eyes of the disciples on the Emmaus road, He is available to open our eyes, too.
| 2016/6/2 12:32|
| Re: |
And remember Saul of Tarsus didn't run into a preacher or a Bible (who knew "the Bible" of that time ie the Law & Prophets by heart better than anyone), but the living, risen Christ Himself! That's not minimizing the truths concerning the Word. That's just a fact. Many Muslims are having the same experience by dreams & visions. So, if you're concerned about their need for discipleship after that (which I also am) instead of aetherially theologically mentally debating it until the cows come home, pray, intercede, & sow into ministries that are providing that Bible & that Discipleship teaching ministry, amen?! 😊 Global Catalytic Ministries is one such ministry. Iran Alive is another. There are MANY others. Let's be doers in the kingdom work God is doing in the Muslim world at this great time of harvest on God's time clock! If He's going to them HIMSELF, & thousands upon thousands of Muslims are being swept into the Kingdom as never before, it's pretty important on the heart of God & sovereignly part of His plan at this hour, wouldn't you agree?
| 2016/6/2 12:37|
| Re: A Short Detour|
I actually found a short YouTube video of that kids commercial. It was 6 finger. Not sticky fingers. You can Google six finger commercial. The jingle actually went man alive, how did I ever get along with five. Bear in mind I don't think such a toy would be sold today. But this is what I grew up with.
Okay don't mean to detract from the discussion. But just wanted to take a short detour down memory lane.
Back to the thread.
| 2016/6/2 16:28|
| Re: |
During that time in the early church letters would be passed around the early churches but they had the torah, they had the writings. If you look at the writings at say the early church father they quote the new testament more times than anyone in the first three hundred years of Christianity.
Doctrine and things were passed around through creeds and songs such as Corinthians 15 is an early creed there are other early passages in the new testament.Look at Larry Hurtados work.
Also during that time memorisation of books was more common but with the amount of new testament manuscripts.
To state that the persecuted church does not have the scriptures and the early church do so therefore why do we need the scriptures is almost a falious argument as we have the light of the scriptures yet we are living in a vastly illiterate church that in most says it loves jesus but does not know what he has actually said.
It would be like saying that I love say my girlfriend but I never read her texts or know anything about her history or her love letters. Loving someone and knowing about them go hand in hand.
The thing is we have the scriptures
20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
We have the light of the gospel and the bible we need to use it to its full potential. There are so many churches who do not do exposition preaching who do not go through the scriptures verse by verse.
it makes me want to cry about the illaturate bible population we have in the church
| 2016/6/2 16:42||Profile|
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To be CRYSTAL CLEAR, I was never saying nor implying "we don't need the scriptures". I was merely responding to what I perceived that I hear a lot which is basically saying or implying one's testimony/conversion is questionable if it didn't come through the reading of the Bible or hearing preaching, but through a dream or vision from Jesus Himself. That's a fallacious argument. Paul's testimony I belief is proof of this, as is the fruit we see in the Muslim world at this time. Of course they need the Word as soon after and as much as possible, but God is God & who can question His ways if He decides to come to them in a dream or vision Himself & bring them to Himself? That's all I was addressing - FYI. And I'm not saying that by hearing the preaching of the Word or the reading of the written Word isn't the "normative" way most come to Christ throughout time, but just saying to then take that to the next extreme and say someone "CAN'T" be saved dreams & visions by Jesus Himself is just not the case. I know some hyper-cessationists take it to this extreme too. But in a struggle to uphold their traditions (cessationism) they deny in error ways that God Himsef sometimes has & sometimes still does move & work to bring people to Himself! 😊🙏🏻☝️💪🏻
| 2016/6/2 16:53|
| Re: |
Saints let us keep in mind that many in the first century church where iliterate. Let us also keep in mind that there was a very limited access to the word of God. Realizing that the word of God then was the Torah. So unless it was a Messianic Jewish congregation the Torah would not have been available to the average Gentile congregation. A few of the apostolic letters we're floating around. But the written word as we know it was not readily available.
Yet the early church seem to be vibrant in their witness of Christ. The early church seem to have power.
So the question is how did they do what they did without the complete Canon of scripture?
| 2016/6/2 17:13|
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It is not the canonized text we really need but the message that the apostles brought (and they learned from Jesus). Canonization was just a necessary tool to ensure that we still can hear/read the same message. I would gladly give up my privilege of reading the bible if I could have Paul teaching in my city every day for a year, and could have someone read his letters to me. Paul knew the Torah, I would ask anything about it from him. I would talk to eyewitnesses still living that were present in the multitudes when Jesus taught them, etc.
| 2016/6/2 18:49|
| Re: |
I would also receive teaching from others that Paul recommends, that's why there are so many recommendations in the epistles. Many converts in the first century were Jews who very carefully preserved their beloved Torah.
edited to add quote:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed."
| 2016/6/2 18:59|
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Actually only a fraction have been preserved for us of all the things that the contemporaries of Jesus saw, heard and knew.
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
Edited obvious typo
| 2016/6/2 19:06|