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Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Branches that bear no fruit

John 15:1-I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Is it possible for a branch to be in Jesus and not able to bear fruit? Were these branches abiding in Jesus or not?

I want to know what others think about the branches that does not bear fruit.


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Sreeram

 2016/5/18 16:29Profile









 Re: Branches that bear no fruit

The branches that do not bear fruit have been somehow disconnected from the vine. It seems clear that the Lord has laid it upon us to abide ( continuous action verb, to keep abiding) in Him. The onus is on us to abide, stay cloes, be connected to Him. If we do not we are in danger of being " cut off.".......bro Frank

 2016/5/18 16:34
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

This is what even I believed Frank. But if these branches are some how disconnected from the vine, then why is Jesus referring them as 'Branches in him'. If the branch is disconnected then it is no longer in the vine right.

So to me now it appears that these are branches that are still connected to the vine but have stopped producing fruit.

So Jesus is saying even among the branches that abide in him only some bear fruits. But without abiding in him nothing can bear fruit.

I hope I have conveyed my questions clearly. The thought that a branch can be in the vine and still cannot produce fruit and remain fruitless scares me. Forget about being cut later by father, but even to stay in a fruitless state is scary.


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Sreeram

 2016/5/18 16:47Profile









 Re: Branches that bear no fruit

I did not write this but it is something to at least consider.

---------------------------------

If you don't bear fruit, you'll get chopped off

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. --John 15:1-2, King James Version

This verse has brought fear into the lives of countless believers because of bad translation. The problem begins with the Greek word, 'airo', which is translated "taketh away". Its usual meaning is “to raise, to lift up”; "to take away" is a secondary meaning. If a branch is “in Jesus”, He will not “take it away” if it does not bear fruit! The context is the same passage where Jesus says, “Peace I leave with you,” and “Let not your heart be troubled.”

Jesus does not treat His own that He died for like that-- if you are in Him, you are safe in Him. Anyone who knows grapes will tell you that a branch will not bear fruit if it falls into the dirt— it must be raised, lifted back up onto the trellis, not removed!

Unfortunately, the NASB and the NKJV repeat this error, and then compound it by choosing the harshest possible meaning for the next phrase: Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit. --NASB and NKJV

Now we have the Father removing the branches that fail-- and cutting those that succeed down to a nub! You can't win! However, since pruning is done to dead branches after the growing season is over, it is not what Jesus meant here. Living branches are not “pruned”-- the plant would go into shock and be unable to bear at all. But allowing the leaves to become coated with dust and dirt reduces the crop, so the vinedresser cleans/washes them.

The Greek word 'kathairo' that's translated "to prune" has a usual meaning of “to cleanse”. “To prune” is a secondary meaning at best--

it's not even mentioned as a possibility in one of the best Greek dictionaries. 'Kathairo' comes from a root word that means “clean, pure”. Jesus actually uses this same root word in the very next verse:

"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you." -- John 15:3

It would make no sense to say, “You are already pruned because of the word which I have spoken to you.” Neither does it make sense for a vinedresser to prune living branches. God cleanses us with the water of the Word— He doesn’t chop limbs off.

Don’t let your heart be troubled. Here’s a better translation:

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He lifts up from where it has fallen; and every branch that bears fruit He cleanses, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you."

 2016/5/18 18:20









 Re:

Hi Tuc, all the verses for context......

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (Joh 15:1-6)

The end result is the branches that do not produce fruit are cast into the fire. That seems like a cautionary tale to me............bro Frank

 2016/5/18 20:30
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 Re:


John 15:2 New International Version (NIV)

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

2 Peter 2:20-22 New International Version (NIV)

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[a] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Hebrews 3:12 New International Version (NIV)

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2016/5/18 20:41Profile









 Re:

Hi sree, I believe that it has to do with free will. Yes we come to Jesus, yes we surrender our lives but these are not one time things. Salvation is of course but to live the surrendered life is to continually surrender. We must continue to come to Jesus, we must continue to seek Him out, we must continue to go deeper into Him. If we do not we can begin to drift away and if we are not diligent, careful with such a great salvation, continue to work it our, we could become reprobates or castaways. Of course someone believes once saved always saved they are not going to accept that which is fine, I can agree to disagree with those of that ilk.

Consider the parable of the sower and the seed. The seed is the word and is heard by the four categories. The first group hears it but because they do not comprehend it then the seed is immediately taken. The second group hear it and receive it with joy, but there is no depth to their conversion and when trouble comes it withers up on the stony ground of their hearts. The third group hear the word and receive it but it has fallen among the thorns and the thistles, the cares and the troubles of this world and the life was choked out of them. The fourth group heard the word and the word , the seed was received into good deep soil and it produced various amounts of fruit. All of these categories, for a time, had the word and had life of one depth or another. Circumstances either snatched the life of the seed away quickly or slower but surely. These to me would be the equivalent of the branches that bore no fruit and were chopped of and burned. Many are called, few are chosen.................bro Frank

 2016/5/18 20:50
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

I simply think that the context ,is a Jewish thing ,relating to Jesus making a statement about him being the God of Israel and the source of life and salvation to them, as he always was through out history ,,,

Jesus is just saying to theses Jewish people who abide in the vine due gods sovereign election of the Israelites as a chosen people ,that unless they bare fruit worthy of repentance, they will be cut of and cast in the the fire ,because this is the result ,when one does not repent and receive the new birth ,,,,,

It has nothing to do with a true believer being cast in to hell ,

One can go to the Old Testament and see the parelels with Israel and the metaphors of them being called a vineyard,,,

The direct historical context has nothing to do with Gentiles ....

 2016/5/18 23:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by brothagary on 2016/5/18 23:59:13

I simply think that the context ,is a Jewish thing ,relating to Jesus making a statement about him being the God of Israel and the source of life and salvation to them, as he always was through out history ,,,

Jesus is just saying to theses Jewish people who abide in the vine due gods sovereign election of the Israelites as a chosen people ,that unless they bare fruit worthy of repentance, they will be cut of and cast in the the fire ,because this is the result ,when one does not repent and receive the new birth ,,,,,

It has nothing to do with a true believer being cast in to hell ,

One can go to the Old Testament and see the parelels with Israel and the metaphors of them being called a vineyard,,,

The direct historical context has nothing to do with Gentiles ....




Hi Gary,

Many Christians are struggling to live the Christian life, who have never discovered where the strength to live that life is to be found. There are many earnest believers, young and old, who are continually being disappointed and cast down because they are finding their own strength and resources inadequate to meet the demands of true Christian living. And many, many Christians of all ages who are hungering and thirsting after a fuller, deeper life than that which they have up to now experienced. What they need to know, and to know experientially as well as mentally, is that all the resources of the Christian life are in CHRIST, and in Him ALONE, and that He lives in them by the Holy Ghost.

I have thought no better illustration was given by the Lord regarding this truth than the Lord's parable of the vine and the branches. This is the first that I have heard it only applies to unsaved Jews.

Especially since every true Christian is "in Christ", a branch in the vine, joined to the Lord and partaker of His nature.

"I am the True Vine, and My Father is the Husbandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit, He taketh away.... If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

We are all called to abide in Christ and bear fruit. The scriptures teach that "He is our life" and that is true for the branches, too. The Vine is their life.

The following applies to all Christians, for surely we cannot bear fruit unless we abide in Christ.
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in Me . . . for without Me (or, severed from Me), ye can do nothing."

 2016/5/19 0:56
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Hi Julius, like I was saying ,it's the direct context, within is historical application ,,,.the facts are he was speaking to the lost sheep of the house of Israel , not to the dogs,,, can I hear any woofs.brothers and sister ...


He was speaking to the lost sheep as as a whole so to speak some where arguable saved already baring fruit ,all ready pruned and cleaned ,and baring fruit ,some weren't ,we know one wasn't ......judus....

Depending on how some interpret scripture ,some say there were none saved till the spirt fell on the day of pentacost,,,,so that would delagate the preaching about the vine and branches to the lost unregenerate Jews ..

Some say that when Jesus breathed on the deciples and said receive the Holy Spirit just before pentacost, only then were they saved ,,,so that would also delagate the vine and branches sermon to the lost sheep who would be also unregenerate .......

So these two views of scripture only allow preaching of the vine and branches to the unregenerate,,,and it is a good argument , I might add ,one that deserves a fresh thread ,,,,tho I don't subscrib to those two views ,in which would be a reason interpret the above ,as if Jesus was speaking to the unsaved ,,,,,

My reasons would be the historical context and missions of Jesus to the lost sheep ,and his ,sovereign relationship to the line of Abraham ,and to corasponding prophecy found in the Old Testament ,that Jesus was using as a metaphor wile teaching the deeper truth of it ....


Now I'm sure you can stretch the application and apply it to those who hear the gospel ,,,,,,,as if God is the scorce of life and light ,and he lights every man that comes in to the world , he upholds Ol things by the word of his powers ,and in him do all things consist ,,he is vine and mankind is the branches ,any who don't bare fruit ,will be cast to hell ...

Or you can aply it the way you and frank are applying it ,which I think is contextual wrong ,but OK to do , since it lines up with other exhortation to press on and insure ,,,,,,,but personally there is enough verses already for that ,and also to teach Christians to get there strength form Christ and not the flesh ,as you said ,, so I am not obligated to use those same verses to teach an application as you mentioned ,,

 2016/5/19 3:44Profile





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