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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 698


Why do some wrestle with such simple truths as "our own desires?"
These bodies have not been redeemed and thus we have desires that "war in our members".

Christ in Paul led Paul to instruct those believers he wrote to - "to mortify your members upon the earth." Paul's words called for the believers to act NOT apartt from Christ in them but through His Christ within them. The call for believers to act is a call to CO-OPERATE. This is very similar to Israel being told to enter and possess the Promise Land. God would go before them just as Christ has gone before us and rendered the body of sin powerless. Nevertheless, the Israelites were to put the Giants to death as God handed them over into their hands.

Christ in Paul also said that we had "practices" that our "bodies" learned when we were in the flesh. Yes, the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience caused us to develop these "practices of the body", but now Christ in Paul instructed the Romans to "put these practices of the body to death BY THE SPIRIT." Again! We CO-OPERATE with the Spirit.

Christ in ALL of the New Testament writers called the believers to ACT using Aorist Middle Imperatives. All the commands (imperatives) regarding putting off the old man and putting on the new man are expressed in the MIDDLE VOICE, a grammatical means that emphasizes the subjects role in the action of the main verb.

Christ in Paul, Christ in Peter, Christ in James and in John, never hesitated to call for believer to act and work. We know this is never APART from Him, but always through and in Him. Nevertheless, our response is not only to be active, it is to be diligent.

Those who wrestle with Christ Jesus calling His disciples to become active, awake, repent, to pray and endure puzzle me.

Something is wrong when even the simplest expression such as "our own desire" that war within our members causes such a stir.


Alan and Dina Martin

 2016/5/18 10:55Profile

Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510

 Re: The Proof of the Pudding is in the Eating

Well, similar topics have been debated with some frequency on this forum.

When it comes to doctrinal views, I believe that "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Right believing leads to right outcomes, and vice versa.

1. Is Christ and His resurrection life real to you?

2. Are you experiencing freedom from sin and lust daily?

3. Do you have testimonies which substantiate your doctrinal views (so that they aren't just fanciful theories)?

These questions we have to answer individually. There is no shame in being honest with God, because "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble" (James 4:6).

Some years ago, when I finally admitted that my "Christian" life was not working... that was the beginning of my journey to truth and freedom in Christ. Life has been different since, very much happier.

 2016/5/18 11:01Profile

 THIS IS NOT a passive life

THIS IS NOT a passive life, but a life of far more vibrant activity than the former one of self-effort. Galatians 2:20 gives us our key. We start by moving by faith into the marvel of the "replaced life," where the "I", who was formerly expressing the Spirit of error, is crucified with Christ, the expressor of the Spirit of truth. "Nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." But then we move on by the Spirit into the restored, liberated "I"-which is really, of course, He in me as me-as Paul says, "the life I now live in the flesh 1 live by the faith of the son of God." Here we are back again in full self-acting self, yet inwardly fixed and knowing it is not really we, but He! The eternal paradox! Or put it, if you like, by combining Paul's word in Philippians 2:13 with his previous statement of 2:12!

In this new inner union relationship, all those "commands" and "exhortations" are spontaneously fulfilled by us, for it is the Spirit who "causes" us to walk in His ways. (Ezek. 36:27). Just as once you went through the chore of learning to drive you now spontaneously keep all the laws of the road!

 2016/5/18 11:19

Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1802



add: Likewise to say that we have Lust does not negate that those Lust originated from the enemy, they become ours when we have excepted them as ours

Do you see how, the James verse does not negate Tucs logic ? Lets becareful with proof text

Wow, saying that the lust originated from enemy is an added word. You are adding something to what James has said. None of us have authority to add or remove anything from scripture.

Anyone can add to anything to any scripture and then say that there is nothing to negate in the scripture to prove that the addition is wrong.

If you understand the spirit behind the scripture you will never even try to argue against it. The spirit is simple, God does not tempt anyone, it is their own lust that tempts them. You do not call something that is put inside your house as your own property. If Satan has put the lust inside us then it is not our OWN, period.

Frankly to any Christian to believe that Satan has authority over them to put any lust inside them should scare them more than to say they already have lust inside them. Imagine if your enemy has access to open your house and put any harmful thing inside your house like an explosive, then it should scare you to hell. Rather than to believe that you have an explosive in your house but you have full power to control it. Our lusts are like that, though it is present inside us, the Holy Spirit can empower us to over power the lusts. But for this the new man should be strengthened. Else the lust can explode any day. That is why it is said that he who thinks he stand should take heed else he may fall anytime.

Do you think God will make us born again and give all authority to Satan to put anything inside us?

Even to Jesus Satan could only tempt him from outside. He had no authority to do anything inside him. That is why Jesus said clearly in John 13 - "Price of this world is coming but he has nothing in me".

If Satan has no control inside Jesus, then how can we believe that he has control to put lusts inside us? Can we also boldly resist him saying he has no hold inside me? I can but you cannot because you believe that Satan has access into you. Think hard in what you believe. Do not believe anything just plainly.


 2016/5/18 11:21Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5674


1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Why does Paul say this?


 2016/5/18 11:57Profile

Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 808


Brothers and Sisters,

TUC is simply saying that the activities we DO as Christians are a result of resting in Christ. Did you read the entire post? If I am seeking Jesus and putting my hope and trust in Him, whether temptation comes or not, then I am going to be doing the things that He leads me to do.

If temptation comes and I take my eyes off of Jesus, then of course I am going to sin. But if temptation comes and I look to Him and trust Him to do what He has already promised, then of course He is faithful! He will do what He promised.

I am not perfect. I am not sinless. But I can tell you this much, experientially, whenever I turn to Christ and cast myself upon Him, the enemy flees. When I don't, I fall.

Jesus Christ has already given us everything we need for life and godliness according to 2 Peter. I lack nothing.

 2016/5/18 12:27Profile


I agree with Havok. As I stated in an earlier post I see nothing wrong in the OP that raises a red flag. If anything it is an exhortation and encouragement to walk in Holiness as unto Christ.

I believe everybody in the thread is in agreement that we are to be holy. We are to live a godly life. But the question is how do we do this? Has God given us the resources by which we can live a life of victory over sin? I think our brother Tuc is simply pointing us to the One that gives us the victory. And that person is Jesus Christ. Will anybody dispute this?

The first half of chapter 1 of 2nd Peter tells us that God's divine power has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness through the true knowledge of Jesus Christ. God has given us the resources by which we may live a godly and holy life as unto Him.

John writes that the one who has his hope fixed on Jesus purifies Himself just as He is pure. The exhortation is to run the race with our eyes fixed on Jesus. None other than Jesus Himself.

If we look to our own self effort and self-discipline then we take her eyes off Jesus. If we take her eyes off Jesus then we will stumble in our sin.

Simply my thoughts.

 2016/5/18 12:42

 Re: brother Blaine

"...purifies Himself just as He is pure".

Did you mean to capitalize the Himself here brother Blaine? I have always understood this scripture to mean that WE purify OURselves (judge ourselves) and choose to no longer to walk after the flesh but the Spirit.

 2016/5/18 13:31

Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 698

 Re: THIS IS NOT a passive life

"Spontaneously filled by us". - thank you TUC

This is what I understood you to be setting forth and this will allow me to open my heart about what I currently see as contradictions to this idea.

Perhaps you will have already dealt with and resolved these "apparent" contradictions in a way that will help me understand and accept much of the other wonderful aspects of what you share.

Please know that I present these questions as "apparent" contradictions because that is honestly how I wrestle with them in regards to the idea that all those in Christ will spontaneously fulfill all God's will.

Please consider these "apparent" contradictions and respond whenever you have time: thank you for your participation in these discussions.

Were the believers at Corinth spontaneously carnal and infantile?

Were the believers in Laodicea spontaneously lukewarm?

Were the believers in Hebrews 5 spontaneously in need of milk and much delayed in their spiritual development?

Did Hymanaaeus and Alexander spontaneously shipwreck their faith?

I could go on and on, but these examples serve the purpose to explain why I do not fully grasp what you seem to be saying about spontaneous life in Christ.

I trust you have worked through this is some way and it may help me to see how you have resolved these "apparent" contradictions to spontaneous life in Christ ensuring that God's will is going to be done spontaneously.

A point of clarity may be helpful here. I believe We agree that a healthy state of abiding in Christ will produce the spontaneous life He generates. My question is related to is that very state of healthy abiding a spontaneously generated state from new birth on, or are there steps and stages that must take place before that healthy state of abiding is well rooted and established?

If we agree on Christ's spontaneous life generation His righteousness once we are abiding, can that state of abiding be hindered or does it become reality spontaneously also?

Alan and Dina Martin

 2016/5/18 15:36Profile


Brother did not mean to capitalize "himself as referring to us. My mistake.

 2016/5/18 16:27

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