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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re: Heb.12:28

Heb 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


This is an exhortation, that points to the only means by which one finds salvation, and the means is Christ. To break it down into 3 parts, part 1 states.....


"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved" refers to :


Heb 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


The heavenly Jerusalem is unshakeable because it is founded on the Word of God. The general assembly and church represent those who have come through the Word of God and find themselves, in spirit, growing in unity with the Father and the Son.


Part 2:

"let us have grace,"

This part of the exhortation points to the source, from which all those who have found themselves in the "heavenly Jerusalem", who have come to understand the means by which God works to perfect those who have entered in.

Earlier in this section of Scripture we find this "grace" mentioned:

Heb 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;


"the grace of God" is the means by which God roots out the corruption which Satan has sowed in the hearts of men. "the grace of God" is the means by which God heals those who find Him. So we are to continue to search out the "grace of God" so that we may grow to love Him more and more each day. The source of this love for Him comes to those who continue in the relationship that He has established between you and His Son Jesus.

Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Jesus is the source by which God saves man. The work of Jesus is the grace by which men find how to love God and one another. The work of Jesus is the wisdom of God sent into the hearts of men so that man can recognize his own failings, his own corruption sown by the works of Satan. When man sees the ugliness of his own heart brought out into the light, when God shows him this ugliness, man's heart is filled with shame. He wants to hide, but there is no escape. Man is without ability to rid himself of shame. Only Jesus can remove the shame. Only Jesus can show a man where to walk to discover God's way of doing things in His creation. He is the author and finisher of our faith.


Part 3

"whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:"

So part one speaks about all those who have found Christ. Part two exhorts us to continue to seek God's grace that is found in the work of Jesus. And part 3 now points to the fruit that is produced in those who are being sanctified by the work of Jesus.

The following verse says that we must be careful not to "refuse" Jesus who speaks to us.

Heb 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

As commentary on the above verse, we find:

Heb 12:5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Heb 12:7
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?


Heb 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

So in context of Hebrews 12, the means by which," we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:" is described in Heb 12:5-11. And the source of this work is found in God's grace.


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2016/5/1 10:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by docs on 2016/5/1 10:25:08

What about what I discussed and provided some corollary comments to? I'm sincerely interested in why criticism of any future for Israel as a redeemed earthly nation being an intergral part of the Kingdom of God when it comes in its fullness is many times based on the notion that this can't be because the earthly realm is entirely inferior to the spiritual realm, As Hebrews 12:28 mentions, when all things have been shaken once more and the unshakeable Kingdom has come in its fullness will it be a entirely spiritual existence or will it involve any earthly aspects?



Because, it is simply not scriptural! God is not redeeming an earthly nation. He is redeeming people out of the nations. God has redeemed Jews out of all the nations and will continue to do that. They don't have to go to a geographical place on earth to be redeemed.

First the natural, then the spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Yes, earthly things are only examples and shadows of heavenly things.
Hebrews 8:4-5
For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The earthly is indeed inferior. We groan, not for an earthly kingdom but for the building of God that is ETERNAL, IN THE HEAVENS.
2 Corinthians 5:1-2

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house WHICH IS FROM HEAVEN.

The good things to come have nothing to do with an earthly kingdom.
Hebrews 9:11-13
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands,

Over and over and over the scriptures tell us, earthly things, the things made with hands are only figures of the true patterns of things in the heavens. And He appears in the presence of God for all of us, not on an earthly kingdom.

Hebrews 9:23-24
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

This is what is going to happen.

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Our lively hope it's not an earthly kingdom, it is reserved in heaven for us.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, RESERVED IN HEAVEN for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are not "hasting" for the millennium but rather the day of God.

2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I know this makes people sad because the Jewish nation is not going to get their kingdom on earth with a nationalistic deliverer, but that was never God's intention as we see in the Old and New testaments. We know the Jews always thought this and still do, but that is part of their partial blindness that keeps them from seeing Christ as a spiritual deliverer and the kingdom of God as a spiritual KINGDOM, Zion as a spiritual city and the "better country", that Abraham sought and all Christians seek. This is why Jesus Christ is the Rock of offense and a stumbling block. The question is, why don't SOME Christians understand this?

This belief system is not Christian thought, it is old, repackaged Judaistic thought, presented as Christian doctrine. it has become so pervasive in contemporary Christian denominations that most people accept it. "They do err, not knowing the scriptures..."

This is the covenant that God made that allows men to go into the "holiest of all".
Hebrews 10:16-18
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Hebrews 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Hebrews 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

Hebrews 8:1-2
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the TRUE TABERNACLE, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Question: We know that Christ's kingdom is on earth right now in the manifestation of His Body, with Him being Head over His Body (government upon His shoulders, Isaiah 9:6). What are the theological implications to NT doctrine if one were to accept the doctrine of Christ, physically establishing one nation on earth as His kingdom? What positive or negative impact does this have with the NT scriptures? How does this thought synchronize with scriptures I posted above and all other NT scriptures?

 2016/5/1 12:03
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Uninformed assumptios don't make conversations

/Because, it is simply not scriptural! God is not redeeming an earthly nation. He is redeeming people out of the nations. God has redeemed Jews out of all the nations and will continue to do that. They don't have to go to a geographical place on earth to be redeemed./

Well I declare julius bro! Who would have ever thunk it? God is redeeming people out of nations and has redeemed Jew out of all nations before this. Man that is remarkable insight! Where have I been all this time?

/They don't have to go to a geographical place on earth to be redeemed./

Well, ha, maybe you should think of publishing that astonishing piece of wisdom. It's so rich in insight it might send waves through the body of Christ. A bit of well intentioned sarcasm obviously but the juvenile nature of your statements serves as a catalyst.

Meawnwhile, bro, where did I or any premill teacher ever say that Jews had to go to a special geographical place to be redeemed? And if every person in a nation was to become saved would it be legitimate to refer to that nation as a "redeemed nation?"

/2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness./

But you've stated we are already living in the new heavens and new earth. Pretty profoundly confusing to me!

/Our lively hope it's not an earthly kingdom, it is reserved in heaven for us./

Yet what will happen when Christ leaves heaven and makes His second advent to earth? Why will He return to a PHYSICAL EARTH if the whole nine yards is to occur in heaven? Will the Kingdom of God be entirely spiritual then and devoid of anything earthly and material? Anybody home?

/We are not "hasting" for the millennium but rather the day of God.

2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?/

If these things, the fervent heat etc., have to occur before the new heavens and earth appear how can you then say we are already living in the new heavens and earth?

/I know this makes people sad because the Jewish nation is not going to get their kingdom on earth with a nationalistic deliverer, but that was never God's intention as we see in the Old and New testaments. We know the Jews always thought this and still do, but that is part of their partial blindness that keeps them from seeing Christ as a spiritual deliverer and the kingdom of God as a spiritual KINGDOM, Zion as a spiritual city and the "better country", that Abraham sought and all Christians seek. This is why Jesus Christ is the Rock of offense and a stumbling block. The question is, why don't SOME Christians understand this?/

You seem to have lost sight of the mystery of redemption which we now know involves two advents of the Messiah to Israel. He came to Israel, left and will return again to Israel. Part of the mystery (one hidden but now revealed) is that Gentiles were then included as part of the body of Christ by faith instead of at the Day of the Lord as was commonoly expected. Ephe 3:6 explains a basic part of the mystery. But this aspect is built around two comings of the Messiah to0 Israel and not one. How then can Israel be left out of even the most simplest analysis of the scriptures concerning the second advent of Christ? The question to me is why many Christians can't or refuse to understand this.

You say,

- Christ is a spiritual deliverer
- The kingdom of God is a spiritual KINGDOM
- Zion is a spiritual city
- The "better country" is spiritual in nature

I believe all of that but yet I'm sure my statement to that effect will go in one of your ears and out the other quickly. I'm speaking from experience.

/Question: We know that Christ's kingdom is on earth right now in the manifestation of His Body, with Him being Head over His Body (government upon His shoulders, Isaiah 9:6). What are the theological implications to NT doctrine if one were to accept the doctrine of Christ, physically establishing one nation on earth as His kingdom? What positive or negative impact does this have with the NT scriptures? How does this thought synchronize with scriptures I posted above and all other NT scriptures?/

I nor any premill teacher has ever tuaght that after Christ makes His second advent that the Kingdom of God will be established in and limited to one nation. Julius, it's clear to me again that you don't understand premillennialism and are just offering up common caricatures and knee jerk reactions of a sort. I'll say it again, you just don't understand the nuances and more importantly many of the basic details and fine points of that which you are almost at the point of obsession in opposing. Your comments that Jews don't need to go to a geographical lcation to be saved underlines my point here.Plus your obvious belief that premill teaches the Kingdom of God will be established in one nation. It's really no use to continue if you have been around so long and don't understand the absurdity and untruth in your statement. How can you claim to have listened to Art's teaching and then make a statment like that? It shows you haven't really been trying. If it wasn't such a serious misrepresentation it would be almost comical. Find about what the other side really believe is what I would recommend. You've got some of it right but in MUCH you are still wrong or uninformed or whatever the best word would be.

Meanwhile, the central question you have danced all around is if the kingdom of God is entirely spiritual whu is Christ going to return to the physical earthly nation from whence He left. Why does it say in that day the knowel;dge of the Lord will cover the EARTH like the waters cover the sea? My question is why does the Kingdom of God being entirely spiritual as you say seem to automatically nullify any earthly aspect of the natural order being part of the Kingdom of God. Is creation maybe "crass" and "evil" and "inferior" according to your view? That is what I wanted to discuss. What happens when Christ leaves the heavenly sanctuary of heaven and makes His second advent to earth to Israel? If you reply there is no evidence He will return to Israel then all I can say is that doesn't suprise me.

I've likely spouted off a little here but juvenile statements and assumptions cause such replies to a degree. So I apologize but please go and get somewhat better informed about that which you have such disdain for. You're not even in the ballpark many times and any future coversations would go better if you would dig harder and become better informed. I say that not just because of today but from past posts and replies also. Sorry to seem or be uppity but that's just where I am this Sunday afternoon.

Peace abd blessings. I'm through for now.

The Forum Guidelines are looking better and better to me. Maybe I can get them into my inner person. I'm sure going to try.

Peace bro.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/5/1 14:17Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

I thought this thread was about:

Heb 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

And the question posed, how does this Scripture fit into the context of Chapter 12 of Hebrews?

What does the Chapter 12 say about "serving God acceptably with reverence and godly fear"?


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2016/5/1 15:57Profile









 Re:

I think Iyke was asking about the nature of "the kingdom that cannot be moved".

Could be wrong, Iyke will let us know.

 2016/5/1 16:03
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

David-

My question of when you think the new heavens and earth will be created was simply intended to clarify.

I think there is only the "1000 year" issue that separates your view and mine. I don't believe we are currently in the new heavens and earth. I think when Jesus returns that is the 1st thing he does after rapturing the Church. Then we will return to the new earth for all eternity.

I just can't comprehend a scenario where Jesus is ruling on the earth over unconverted sinners. But I don't want to assume that you believe this; you may not. I thought the traditional premillennial position is that there will be unbelievers on the earth during the millennium.


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Todd

 2016/5/1 16:42Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: rookie

It just so happens that a week ago at our home prayer group the entire 12th chapter of Hebrews was read and we had a good discussion regarding the whole chapter and Hebrew 12:28 also. If I can find the time maybe I can pull some of th points of discussion out of my memory and share them a bit. I will try and do that about this excellent chapter in the Lord's grand word.


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David Winter

 2016/5/1 16:42Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: OK TMK

I'll try and get back to you soon. Maybe I could at a somewhat leisurely pace for both of us address a point at a time.

Are you residing in Canada by the way?

Thanks bro.


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David Winter

 2016/5/1 16:42Profile
Brotheralechenu
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Posts: 52
Lagos, NGR

 Re: Heb.12:28


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Paul

 2016/5/8 17:26Profile
Brotheralechenu
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Joined: 2016/3/29
Posts: 52
Lagos, NGR

 Re: Heb.12:28

It's not a hard passage to grasp.
"We new testament believers have not come to Mount Sinai where the law was given to Moses but we have come to Mount Zion. We have come to the City of the living God. The city of the living God cannot be shaken because it is God's residence. Mount Sinai was on the earth. It was created. It is a physical place, earthly. and it will eventually be removed at the close of time. When God spoke to Moses on that Mountain, the whole place was vibrating and shaken. but now we Christians have not to that Mount. We are receiving a kingdom that cannot be moved or shaken like Mount Sinai was. We have come to God himself ,to the domain of just spirit beings and not to Moses. We are receiving a powerful kingdom. And we shall receive it completely when the Lord comes".


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Paul

 2016/5/8 17:26Profile





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