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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


  nor ever shall be.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


 2016/4/26 21:48Profile









 Re: nor ever shall be.

I wonder what constitutes "great tribulation". "Great" can mean awesome, fantastic, wonderful, etc., but in this case I think it refers to magnitude or numbers so I kind of agree with Jeff that great tribulation is yet to come.

 2016/4/27 0:36
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2077


 Re: Then is When and When is Then


- Then is When and When is Then -

“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. “But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! “But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. “And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. Matthew 24:15-25

Note:
vs. 15  ...When...
vs. 16 ...Then...
vs.  19 ...Those days...
vs.   21 ...Then...
vs.   22 ...Those Days had been...Those Days shall...
vs.  23 ...Then...
vs.  25  Behold, I have told you in advance.

Jesus said, "I have told YOU in advance."

"Told YOU", What, "in advance."

What they would "see", what they should do, and what they should "not believe."

Everything in between vs. 15-25 cannot be in OUR future. You must have a presupposition to come to such a conclusion. The reading of the text in its context will not bear that out.

Jesus told them in advance, and it most assuredly came to pass as He said it would.

- Then is When and When is Then -

 2016/4/27 7:56Profile









 Re:

Good point, Savannah.

 2016/4/27 8:01
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "I wonder what constitutes "great tribulation". "Great" can mean awesome, fantastic, wonderful, etc., but in this case I think it refers to magnitude or numbers so I kind of agree with Jeff that great tribulation is yet to come."

In 70 ad the entire city was destroyed- almost everyone was killed- people were eating their own children. How can it get worse than that?

I agree the holocaust was obviously horrific but that did not take place in Jerusalem.


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Todd

 2016/4/27 8:03Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2077


 Re: presuppositions



Presuppositions will lead men to say such things as this one poster,

"Jerusalem will again be surrounded by armies (is already surrounded by Islamic nations that hate Israel & will be surrounded by their armies one day again on a much larger scope/scale. And 70 AD was a picture of what's to come. The first installment. But the eventual final apocalyptic fulfillment just before the Day of the LORD is still to come & this one will reconcile ALL the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse, Daniel (where Jesus is actually quoting from in Matthew 24), & all the rest of the prophets. So it was "a fulfillment" but not THE Final fulfillment."

Some may even take the above quote seriously, and even make it almost equal with the Scripture itself. Many have done so with C.I. Scofield's comments in his reference bible. 😢

 2016/4/27 8:35Profile









 Re: Revelation 7

 2016/4/27 9:47









 Re: Revelayion 7

Rev.7:13-14

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in, white robes who are they and where do they come from?" I said to him, "My Lord you know.: And he said to me, "These are the ones who have come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION and they have washed their robes and made them white by the blood of the Lamb."

...CAPS for emphasis only...


Brothers respectfully the context of the above verse what is at the end of Revelation 7. The chapter opens up with the 144,000 coming out of the 12 tribes of Israel in Rev.7:4-8. This is probably the remnant that is saved by grace that Paul mentions in Romans. I take the 144000 to be a symbolic number. Then the vision moves to a great multitude that no one could count from every nation, and all tribes and peoples and tongues. They are standing before the throne and before the Lamb clothed in white robes and palm branches were in their hands and they cry out with a loud voice saying salvation to our God who sits on the hrone and to the Lamb.

Brothers I respectfully submit that what you see above is the remnant church that spans time and space. This will be the bride of Christ consisting of Jew and Gentile. This will be the bride that has a remnant from every nation on the face of the Earth.

What you see in Revelation 7 is the culmination of Matthew 24:14. That is the gospel being preached to the whole world as a testimony to all the nations and then the end coming.

Brothers respectfully you will be hard-pressed to get a 70 AD fulfillment out of Matthew 24 and Rev. 7. For what John wrights is an ongoing reality of the command that Jesus gave at the end of his Gospels. And that is to go and preach the gospel to all of the nation's and make disciples.

Brothers if you try to make this a 70 A.D.fullfillment then you're reducing the Bible to nothing more than just a history book. And denying the inspiration of scripture has Timothy record in 2nd Timothy 3:16. Remember all scripture IS INSPIRED by God. Not WAS INSPIRED by God.

The activity found in Revelation 7 is still going on. God is still calling out a Remnant Church from every nation around the world. The gospel is still being preached. The END is yet to come.

Granted in 70 AD the temple was destroyed. Jerusalem did come under tribulation. But the Great Tribulation is yet to come. Mainly the gospel is still being preached to the whole world.

Respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

 2016/4/27 10:13
lovejt
Member



Joined: 2005/11/5
Posts: 123


 Re: Revelation and the Beast

The Second Coming by Tozer is an excellent sermon in light of the recent discussions about the end times. Highly recommend it.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=649&commentView=itemComments


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james thorpe

 2016/4/27 10:57Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

Bear- might we not be dealing with hyperbolic language as is common in Scripture?

"And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations." ~Ezekiel 5:9

See also, Exodus 11:6, 2 Kings 18:5, Joel 2:2, 2 Kings 23:25, Daniel 9:12

Consider this language of Josephus who witnessed the events of 70 AD.

"The war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of." and "the multitude of those that perished exceeded all of the destructions which either man or God ever bought upon the world... No other city ever suffered such things, no other generation was ever more fruitful in wickedness." (Josephus)


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Todd

 2016/4/27 11:02Profile





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