| Re: |
Tozsu wrote: "In this sermon it is made crystal clear that the parousia is still in the future to us, and is an event that we hopefully looking forward to." absolutely correct. Continue to be a "Berean ", may it be to equip yourself and to serve the Lord , to whom we are accountable.
Savanna: I'm thankful for the Link! This was new to me after 30 years as a Christian and a real eye opener.
If you are not sure if you can post something here on SI you can always post it to me directly.
Greg: "The forums are not here for any brother to try and convince others of their viewpoint "
Totally agree !! My concern I wanted to bring to your attention in my post is: if we start using the Quaran to support our view.
Thank you everyone for the contributions - Maranatha !! Come Lord Jesus.
| 2016/4/25 1:22|
| Re: Blessed |
Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
"And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:7
| 2016/4/26 4:28||Profile|
| Re: |
I don't know if all the "use the Quran to support our view" is directed at me or not in discussing the idea of Islamic Antichrsit? If so, let me clear something up:
I don't "use the Quran to support my idea". There are forms of evangelism now of not just Chrislam, but integrative Quranic passage use to "find common ground with Muslims to try to show Jesus & the Gospel from the Quran". There is the "Camel Method" of evangelism to Muslims. There is even a mixture (compromising idolatry) of Christianity & Islam coming together to pray called "Chrislam". I find this repugnant & a mixture God's hates. These are "doctrines of Devils"! Demonic/Satanic "inspired" writings (just like the Book of Mormon, The WatchTower, etc.).
When I was speaking of "The Islamic Anyichrist" showing in all of the Quranic & Hadith writings THE EXACT OPPOSITE ANTI-PARALLEL story to the scriptures (their "Madhi savior" looks just like our antichrist, & they actually quote Bible verses from Revelation speaking on the one on the "pale" horse; & their "Jesus" - Isa Al Masih in Arabic, looks just like the Biblical "False Prophet"), what I'm saying is that their book is the exact OPPOSITE, ANTI-Parallel (like a reciprocal in a mirror) & down to the details, so it's alarming. I'm not advocating using the Quran for doctrine, or for evangelism, or for anything other than a book inspired by Satan Himself.
And the Mideast Book then totally never looks at anything in the Islamic books, but is the comprehensive "SCRIPTURAL CASE (all from the Word of God) for the Islamic Antichrist. Just wanted to clear that up & explan that in case it was directed at me? The devil has been around for thousands of years & trust me knows the Bible and what's coming better than we do. So it's interesting that he would create a false religion the exact opposite of scripture to "be like the most high" & have people worship him as such. That's what makes the way the puzzle pieces fall into place astounding.
| 2016/4/26 9:07|
| Re: Regsrding the Video |
Now these were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
Brethren in these discussions on end times I keep hearing on the threads let us be Berean. A simple reading of the text above would presuppose that the Bereans were examining the message of Paul against their Torah consisting of the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms. In other words they were looking to the scriptures alone without the aid of commentaries and sermons.
The Bereans, who were Jewish, were examining Paul's message of Jesus being the Messiah against the Messianic prophecies as found in the Old Testament.
So to be Berean is to examine the scriptures, and the scriptures alone. To examine the scriptures without the aid of commentaries and expositions. To examine the scriptures alone in light of the Holy Spirit. As the Holy Spirit is not only the author of scriptures. But He is also the interpreter of scripture.
It was with a prayerful attitude I attempted to listen to the video. I attempted to lay aside my own preconceived notions and give a fair hearing of what the brother was putting forth.
I will attempt to give an objective summary of the video and then give my own thoughts.
Sumnary of Video.......
The brother starts out by acknowledging there will be a physical return of Jesus Christ. He says this is the hope of the church. He says that Jesus Will physically return and culminate history.
The brother maintains that most of New Testament prophecy was fulfilled by 70 A.D. He is speaking primarily of the signs found in Matthew 24. And also the Book of Revelation. The brother goes on to say that Matthew and revelation are the most Jewish books of the New Testament. Of course he does include Hebrews akso.
Again the brother maintains that the Beast that is destroyed in Revelation is the Jewish system of worship. Also he puts great emphasis upon the worship of the emperor Nero during that time. And again the brother holds that the Book of Revelation was written around 65 A.D.
Near the end of the message the brother does say that it's the gospel that is triumphing in the nations. That eventually evil will be subdued by the gospel. And that when the enemies of Jesus have been defeated. Then Jesus will return.
I have attempted to give an objective summary of the video as I understand it. Without name-calling or labeling. If I have misrepresented the brother in any way. And feel free to correct me. But again let's do this objectively.
The thought that came to my mind as I was listening to the speaker is that he's denying the inspiration of scripture. 2nd Timothy 3:16 says.......
All scripture IS INSPIRED by God and profitable for teaching,for reprove, for correction, for training in righteousness,
Please note, the text does not say all scripture WAS INSPIREF by God. But all scripture IS INSPIRED by God. I stress this point because the Bible is not a history book fulfilled prophecy that happened in the past. But the Bible is the word of God that speaks to us today as it spoke to the Believers 2000 years ago. Also I believe the Bible has inspired prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled. Obviously with implications to the end times.
I want to be clear that I don't think the speaker is intending to deny the inspiration of scripture. But by relegating everything to a 70 a.d. fulfillment, he is not allowing room for the Holy Spirit to speak to believers today.
And this brings me to my next observation. The brother stresses dependence on external sources to set forth his thesis that prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. I honestly think that if someone were on a deserted island with only the Holy Spirit and the New Testament. They would not come to the position this brother holds.
There's no denying that the speaker is well-educated. And no doubt an astute reader of commentaries. And other external sources to come to his position of prophecy being fulfilled in 70 AD. But that is the problem. Theology is a curse of the devil and the opinions of men. It is theology that brings confusion to the body of Christ and brings forth division.
One does not need commentaries or external sources to understand the word of God. Even the Book of Revelation. William Tyndale died to give the plowboy and the milkmaid the English Bible by which they could understand the word of God.
Many of us who began our walk with Christ with only a New Testament would read Matthew 24 and come to the conclusion that this is a future return of the Messiah.
If we would simply get a New Yestament. And ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit. And come to Jesus in humility listening to his word. God will unfold His mysteries to us.
I will simply conclude with this quote by John Bunyon.......
Read and read again, and do not despair of help to understand the will and mind of God though you think they are locked up from you. Neither trouble your heads though you have not commentaries or expositions. Pray and read, read and pray for a little from God is better than a whole lot from men.
Brothers I have listened to the message. I have sought the Spirit. From my own understanding of scripture and what the Spirit has shown me. The brother is not correct and saying that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD.
...Caps are for emphasis only...
| 2016/4/26 10:52|
| Re: |
If he is saying the 2nd coming is yet future then he is not also saying that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70ad.
It is obvious in scripture that Jesus WAS talking about the destruction of Jerusalem. Look at Luke 20 beginning with v 21.
My bible's heading for that section even says " the destruction of Jerusalem"
Why does it upset you that at least part of the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in 70 ad? It was still prophecy when it was uttered. Jesus said "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..." Jerusalem WAS surrounded by armies and was in fact destroyed by these armies.
| 2016/4/26 11:47||Profile|
| Re: |
Jerusalem will again be surrounded by armies (is already surrounded by Islamic nations that hate Israel & will be surrounded by their armies one day again on a much larger scope/scale. And 70 AD was a picture of what's to come. The first installment. But the eventual final apocalyptic fulfillment just before the Day of the Lord" is still to come & this one will reconcile ALL the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse, Daniel (where Jesus is actually quoting from in Matthew 24), & all the rest of the prophets. So it was "a fulfillment" but not THE Final fulfillment. In exactly the same way that the prophets in the OT Peophesied concerning Israel (& even in some of the Messainic Prophecies) things that had application & an immediate/soon fulfillment right ahead of them, but also a prophetic eventual apocalyptic fulfillment at the end. Like the end of the end just before the Day of the Lord. That's the only way you can fully reconcile ALL of the prophets' words in all their contexts, in my opinion. But, we can certainly agree to disagree & that's fine.
| 2016/4/26 12:00|
| Re: Todd|
Bro let me clarify. I think I said in my post that the brother who was speaking said most of the prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD. Although I'm not quite sure which ones he would be making reference to.
I do agree that some of the prophecies, how many I can't say, where fulfilled in 70 AD. But I believe that there are still signs that are contained in the Olivet discourse that are yet to be fulfilled.
That's probably where a lot of this discussion is centered on. Is there yet a future fulfillment of the signs of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 yet to be fulfilled? I would say yes from my understanding and reading of the scriptures.
Bro I didn't think I was coming across as being upset. I was simply giving an assessment of the message that I listen to. It's hard to tell the tone in text. But I can assure you I was not upset. Just merely did not agree with a brother saying that most of the prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD.
| 2016/4/26 12:10|
| Re: |
Sorry Bear- I didn't mean to imply you were really upset- it was more of a rhetorical statement- I mean I didn't think you were crying or anything :)
It just seems that some people seem to get sort of panicked when they hear that at least some (I would argue most) of the OD was fulfilled in 70 AD. I think there are two reasons for this: first, most people only know the futurist version of prophecy, primarily the "left behind" version. When they hear another theory they feel their faith is being attacked. Second, almost no one, and I mean no one, has read extensively about what actually happened in 70 ad in Jerusalem. It was the greatest tribulation the world had yet seen.
Whether Jesus was talking about two separate fulfillments thousands of years apart remains to be seen. The text itself does not require such an interpretation.
| 2016/4/26 14:03||Profile|
| Re: |
70 AD was worse than WW2 & the holocaust? More people died in WW2 than all the other wars in history combined. I know you'll reference Josephus' account of things, but hard facts are hard facts. More Jews died in Gas ovens in Nazi Germany than there were total Jews in Isrel in 70 AD. So I don't know about 70 AD being "the worse tribulation the world's ever seen". In fact, more Christians were martyred in the last decade or so than the last 2,000 years. These are all hard numbers data facts Open Doors, VOM & others have on record. I have heard/read the 70 AD stuff, but it seems all "shaped" a certain way to make it even bigger than the facts/data allow for. That's why I believe the next "big one" that really is THE great tribulation (the time of Jacob's distress) will be ginormous. In fact, the Word of God says of that time there will be more distress than there ever was, "or ever shall be". But WW2 far outpassed numbers of 70 AD, so that can't mean 70 AD (in my mind from the scriptures) was "IT".
My 2 cents,
| 2016/4/26 18:24|
| Re: |
Jeff you misunderstand me.
It was the worst tribulation the world and particularly the Jewish world had seen to that point in history. There is no necessity from the text that Jesus was referencing all future history.
In other words, he could have said that in about 40 years you will experience the greatest tribulation ever known. That would not mean he was precluding the idea of even greater tribulation at some later date, like the things you referenced
WW1 was the greatest tribulation the world had known. Until WW2.
| 2016/4/26 21:37||Profile|