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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Christian Mysticism vs. The Holy Spirit

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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1164
Germany NRW


Just one random source you mentioned in your list, George Lavington,_George_(DNB00)

Lavington, as a strenuous opponent of methodism, acted with great severity to the Rev. George Thompson, one of its chief supporters in Cornwall, and refused to accept the testimonials of Thomas Haweis [q.v.] because he disliked the views of the signatory clergymen. In 1748 there was printed a fictitious extract from a charge just delivered by him in his diocese which exposed him to the charge of favouring methodism, whereupon he publicly accused its leaders of having promoted the fraud. Through the aid of the Countess of Huntingdon their innocence was proved, and Lavington was induced to retract his accusation.

Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the Lord .
Leviticus 19:16 KJV

It just stinks

 2016/4/18 1:33Profile

Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK


OP there are many people who misunderstand Christian mystics and they also had some doctrinal errors too but many of them were godly men and women who lived exemplary lives of holiness and devotion to God.

There is a false mystical experience as well as there is a false revival experience. The devil can counterfeit any spiritual gift, grace or experience. Christian mystics sought that oneness with God thru Jesus Christ and that's what every true believer should desire, spiritual fellowship and unity with Christ and God the Father.

They taught that we should love God from a pure motive and heart and that this love should be unselfish. Basicly what they were saying is that we should love God more than we love ourselves and that pure love comes from God and also they demonstrated that by example living a life of total devotion to Him.

Those critiques of the christian mystics often are void of that pure and divine love that burned deep in the hearts of these christian mystics and they lack the gift of spiritual discernment, yes that gift is even for today brother when the devil is deceiving more than ever naive souls. Tozer spoke to us in the language of a godly mystic but in Protestant terminology.

And as for Zinzendorf all I'm hearing about him is gossip based not on facts, it seems like his enemies in his time were trying to slander his character. Moravian brothers of the 18th century were the most godly and self-sacrificing people in the history of modern church, many of them died for Christ sake in mission field, they were the greatest missionary movement in the 18th century. During that time the Protestant Church at large was disinterested in missions.

Without the moravian revival, there would have not been any methodist revival, any John Welsey or any holiness revival in the 19th century, there would have been no Tozer or Ravenhill because of that humble little group of godly people that earnestly sought God in prayer the evangelical and Protestant history was influenced for good and only God knows the great impact they had on evangelical revival and modern missionary movement.

P.S - Often the critiques of christian mystics are either staunch calvinistics, or some fundamentalists who look for the smallest error in the life or teaching of the godliest men or it can be some Christians who were involved in some pseudo mystical experience before they converted or after conversion and now they sound the alarm as if all mystical experience is false, throwing the baby with the bathwater. We know that the so called contemplative teaching today that has infiltrated evangelical churches is shallow and false. Its not the work of the Holy Spirit but spiritual deception in the form and name of classic Christian mysticism deceiving naive souls looking for a experiences without Christ and the Cross. True christian mystics exalted the Cross and Christ, read Fenelon and you will see what I mean brother.


 2016/4/18 2:26Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


Hey, elected Re: "classic Christian mysticism"

ah, now we're getting somewhere. Is there something like "classic Christian mysticism". I would say no, but I will look into it a bit further. That term reminds me of someone who was a member here a few years ago: "Bro. Tom" if I remember correctly. I read him again on another forum where he told us what he really believed. Part of it was that the dead Bin Laden was not dead, he actually talked to him and told him that he was the anti-christ.

"staunch calvinistics, or some fundamentalists who look for the smallest error"

I think this is about one of the biggest errors possible. It has endtimes quality of gigantic porportions, the roots, the fruit, the infiltrations, the influence on Christianity as such. Without it the Mystery of endtimes Babylon would not be possible. Your thinking in categories of calvinists or some fundamentalists has nothing to to with it, these labels are irrelevant in that regard, neither would I use them in order to understand anything.

 2016/4/18 3:52Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


let's have a look in Germany at current day Herrnhuters
and what we can find is some interesting info:

a "same sex partnerships compatible with Christianity" declaration

& Rolf Appel is "one of the leading freemasons alive"
that already wrote 50 books about freemasonry.

1946 - 1970 he was the book publisher of the Herrnhuter community
1950 - 1962 Leader of Youth (Flensburg to Göttingen) of the Herrnhuter community
2003 Member of the Council of Elders of the Herrnhuter community
etc. 'achievements' like ..."negotiating relationship of freemasonry with Rome"

source is in german, use a quick translator software

 2016/4/18 3:53Profile

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1164
Germany NRW


I happen to understand German, so no need for a translator.

You cannot hold Zinzendorf responsible for what people who bear the name of his movement do afterwards. Look at contemporary methodism and you find all sorts of things one can object. Look at any movement that used to be on God's cutting edge in the past and you may see signs of decay.

God has no grand children.

I can pick up any junk from the web and publish it.

 2016/4/18 4:15Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1569
Scotland, UK


Christian Mystics - In the past God hid this mystery, but now he has revealed it to his people. Col 1:6

Jesus plainly said that if we are unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God. Jesus the last Adam is a life giving spirit and as a Christian we are all mystics and fully capable of understanding what God has given us.

However within our midsts there are those who operate through the Spirit of this world; if we look at church history it is littered with misguided movements many of them are linked with mysticism.

The fact that false Mysticism has many forms can be seen by the litany Paul gives in Colossians:

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day — things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God. If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish with use) in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Paul calls this approach “self-made religion” which is exactly what all forms of mysticism are. They all suggest that having been converted by the Lord through the cross and practicing His ordained means of grace by faith are inadequate. They have discovered a better way that leads to a higher order experience. Paul says they have “the appearance of wisdom.”

His list includes ascetic practices, the monastic movement led to the idea that one could become a higher order Christian and be more pleasing to God.

Mystical practices that today are being brought back into the church under the guise that they came from a time when Christianity was pristine and not tainted by modernity.

Luther wrote a lengthy essay demonstrating that scripture rejects the validity of monastic vows. His essay is also an interesting look into the issues that were debated at the time of the Reformation. One key issue for Luther was that the monastics went beyond the gospel and made commandments out of matters that God has not commanded and in so doing sought to achieve a superior standing before God. One such example was celibacy. Luther argued that vowing something that God had not commanded is sinful: “The very foundation of the monastic vows is godlessness, blasphemy, sacrilege, which has befallen them because they spurn Christ, their leader and light, and presume to follow other things they think better.” They thought they could improve on the teachings of Christ and live a superior spirituality by swearing oaths to live pious lives beyond anything Christ required of His people. Luther condemned this as sinful. Luther wrote, “If you obey the gospel, you ought to regard celibacy as a matter of free choice: if you do not hold it as a matter of free choice, you are not obeying the gospel. . . .

A vow of chastity, therefore, is diametrically opposed to the gospel. So in Luther’s day, he taught that Christians were in error and sin if they bound themselves by oath to a practice not required by Christ. Though they may think themselves more pious than ordinary Christians because of their special vows, Luther called them gross sinners.

Today the largest new mystical movement is the Emergent Church; now assume that since ordinary Christianity is compromised, they must discover an extraordinary way to become better Christians. One Emergent leader has even entitled one of his works, “A New Kind of Christian.”

But this movement really isn’t all that new it draws on teachings and practices found in other mystical movements in church history. Furthermore, the Purpose Driven movement is also a mystical movement, Rick Warren claims there are world class Christians that are in a better category than ordinary Christians. The apostles and prophets movement is also mystical.

So ironically, three huge movements in American evangelicalism (Purpose Driven, Emergent, and C. Peter Wagner’s latter day apostles) are all based on Mysticism. The three movements seem radically diverse, but each one claims to be a new reformation and each offers a higher status than that of ordinary Christians.

Colin Murray

 2016/4/18 9:49Profile



I think we are all in agreement that there is a pseudo non Christian mysticism which is very popular today. The genuine one has nothing much to do with monasticism though some in the past were enclosed.

Indeed there is no higher order Christian. However, many who think they are Christians are not. They are still carnal. A true Christian is entirely submitted to Christ and has overcome sin.

 2016/4/18 10:11

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


I'm new to the author David Cloud, but not new to see things
and discern like him, in my opinion he does not go far enough,
because he has got a "blind spot" in regard to American
centered understanding, what only can be overcome when
compared to for example the view from a German author
like Rudolf Ebertshauser I will quote later, but David Cloud
has got the basics right:

The Charismatic Movement

Mysticism has been a major element of the Pentecostal-
Charismatic movement throughout its history. Charismatic
phenomena such as “spirit slaying” and seeking tongues
through emptying the mind are forms of blind mysticism.

To seek something that the Bible never says seek,
in ways the Bible does not support,
and to open oneself uncritically to religious experiences
like this, puts one in imminent danger of receiving
“another spirit” (2 Cor. 11:4).

The Bible warns that there are deceiving spirits that attempt
to influence Christians and they can appear as angels of light
and ministers of God (2 Cor. 11:13-15; Mat. 24:24).

Paul warned the believers at Corinth that they were in danger
of receiving false spirits because of their carnal, broadminded,
undiscerning condition (2 Cor. 11:3-4).

The true Christian cannot be possessed by evil spirits,
but he can certainly be influenced by them, and many
professing Christians who are messing around with
charismatic practices have never been born again,
and they can be possessed!

source: [ ]

we all have been deceived at one time - I was wakeing up this
morning with the song "...major Tom to ground control..." on my
mind thinking about "Bro. Tom" talking about "Christian mysticism"
and reflecting on many forum doctrines I came across here
over the years. When I joined this forum it was a group of stark
antinomians and a compromise with a spirit that could not
differentiate between truth and deception. Sometimes things look as
if they would have changed but in reality the understanding of scripture
declined over time and the charismatic idea of a endtimes revival
slowly turned into the true condition of that pragmatic of being in fact
part of the great falling away and endtimes deception. Now people
seem to have problems decoding even the simplest of errors,
and it all started with antinomianism.

 2016/4/18 20:17Profile

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1164
Germany NRW


Here are some experiences people at SI had with David Cloud

Rudolf Ebertshäuser is cessationist and staunch opponent of the pentecostal and charismatic movement.

 2016/4/19 2:22Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


I have something for you, (audio) only for you, I think you can understand it(?) :

Biblischer Glauben oder mystisches Schauen?
Dieser Vortrag geht auf den biblischen Weg des Glaubens ein, der sich an das Wort Gottes und den unsichtbaren Herrn hält, und beleuchtet kritisch den trügerischen Weg des Schauens und Spürens, den die Mystik einschlägt.

 2016/4/19 5:15Profile

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