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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Christian Mysticism vs. The Holy Spirit

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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1161
Germany NRW

 Re: Christian Mysticism vs. The Holy Spirit

How do you come to the conclusion that Zinzendorf was a Mason and Rosarycrucian?

That throws up a lot of confusion since the Moravians had a strong influence on Wesley, Georg Müller and many other movements.

Are you sure you are quoting from credible sources? Did you just copy and paste others or are you sure what you say is true?

 2016/4/16 18:08Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


RE: Brenda: "Another misunderstanding is regarding the word mystery. According to scripture, it is something to be revealed by the Spirit and only kept hidden from the blind. Their own hearts keeps their minds in darkness. There is no secret to it - it is to the obedient that more light is given, obedient that is to the light given to their consciences."

“mystery”= #3447 = mus-the-rion/musterion= a hidden thing of
meaning. a matter to the knowledge of, in which initiation is necessary.

The word “musterion” is a term used for those religions which had special secrets that were kept and known only by the inner sanctum. To learn them, one must go through certain rituals or rites of passage - special tests to prove and earn for oneself the trusts and rights necessary to learn the special secrets. Usually these were connected to the idea of witchcraft and sorcery by which one enters into treaties and contracts with the supernatural rebel satanic forces for certain favors in exchange for carrying out certain missions on behalf of the rebel satanic forces. [R.Coombes]

My comment: Unity in diversity always DOES include all error, that's why so many are confused about this and has led to this current situation of 2 Thessalonians 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 2016/4/16 21:04Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


narrowpath: The link of the article about that has all the sources of the individual quotes, so you can do your own research by going to these sources. I came to that article while doing research on Contemplative Mysticism. Some Additional Study Resources:

Contemplative Mysticism: A Powerful Ecumenical Bond

Contemplative Spirituality Comes to Modern Day Christianity

Contemplative Spirituality: A belief system that uses ancient mystical practices to induce altered states of consciousness (the silence) and is rooted in mysticism and the occult but is often wrapped in Christian terminology.

 2016/4/16 21:05Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


Some easier entry to understand this GREAT COMPROMISE - a whole book about it in simple terms:

The God of End-Time Mysticism

Mysticism is a major element of the mystery of iniquity.
Through mysticism men are drawn toward Satan and his
program under the guise of “spirituality.”
They are captured by lies under the guise of truth.

Mysticism takes many forms. It is the humanist following
his heart. It is the secular rocker understanding that
“music is a spiritual thing of its own” (Jimi Hendrix). It is
the Christian rocker seeking to experience “the presence”
of God. It is the charismatic yielding to the “flow of the
Spirit” and refusing to “put God in a box.” It is Timothy
Leary seeking enlightenment through LSD. It is the
Catholic or evangelical contemplative seeking God in
the silence. It is the New Ager channeling spirits. It is the
Buddhist seeking Nirvana through the five-fold path. It is
the Hindu pursuing unity with God through yoga. It is the
psychology student seeking to perfect his self-esteem by
practicing unconditional forgiveness.

[ ]

 2016/4/16 21:08Profile


There seems to be no corroborating evidence whatsoever that Count Zinzendorff was a Mason and Rosarycrucian. On the contrary he was a an absolutely fine fellow and a true servant of the Lord Jesus Christ

This article is from Jews for Jesus

Zinzendorf and the Jewish People

by Arthur Glasser
Count Nikolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf (1700-1760) was a remarkable nobleman who became one of the great mission leaders of all time. He lived during a period of great dislocation after the disastrous Thirty Years War" (1618-1648).

That on-again, off-again struggle was just about the most exhausting armed conflict in the history of central Europe. Essentially it involved Catholic efforts to regain territories lost to Protestants as various regional rulers took sides following the Reformation. Armies marched back and forth throughout Germany, opposing all that stood in their way. It is estimated that the decimation embraced one-third of all urbanites and two-thirds of all rural peasants. German princes, foreign interventionists, roving bands of ex-soldiers and religious groups ("Every church for herself") made a horrible mix and mess.

The war broke out in Bohemia, which had become predominantly Protestant. There it all but extinguished the descendants of a vital pre-Reformation Pietist movement associated with Jan Hus. The group was known as the ancient Unitas Fratrum, the Unity of the Brethren. More than 1 million were slain, and bands of survivors sought refuge in Germany. One small group was welcomed to settle on Count Zinzendorf's estate.

Zinzendorf had an unusually godly upbringing. His father died when he was only six weeks old. When his mother subsequently remarried, he was sent to live with his grandmother and aunt in a context (a castle) renowned for its Lutheran Pietism.

Both of these women read their Bibles in the original Hebrew and Greek. They brought the young Zinzendorf into contact with August Hermann Francke, and from his tenth birthday onward the boy studied at Francke's Paedagogium in Halle. There he gained a vision of the church's worldwide mission and took a vow always to be concerned for the Jewish people. Later, Zinzendorf studied law at the University of Utrecht. He seemed destined for a significant career in politics, but certain events took him in a different direction.

Shortly after Zinzendorf's twentyfirst birthday, he acquired the large estate of Berthelsdorf from his grandmother and began to wonder what he should do with it. Then he learned about the need of that small band of Bohemian refugees and encouraged them to settle on his estate.

As refugees from all over began to learn of Count Zinzendorf's welcome, the number of settlers increased. At first, Zinzendorf didn't know what to make of these people. Then he began to reflect on their Christ-centeredness, their biblical orientation and their deliberate nonparochial outlook. In no time at all, he became deeply involved in their communal life and ardent worship.

Space prevents a detailed account of the subsequent history of Herrnhut, the village created on a hill of the Berthelsdorf estate, or of the amazing worldwide Moravian missionary movement that eventuated under Count Zinzendorf's leadership. Suffice it to say that on August 13, 1727, after weeks of special prayer and discussion, the Holy Spirit was pleased to come upon that community. By the twenty- seventh, 48 members had covenanted together to devote themselves to "hourly intercession" for God's blessing on the congregation and its worldwide witness. Then wonderful things began to happen!

Under Zinzendorf's leadership, members were sent out near and far to exemplify "the simple truth that to be a Christian was to be involved in a mission to the whole world" (Lewis 1962:61). Particularly interesting is the fact that in Herrnhut's first contingent of missionaries sent forth to the nations, Leonard Dober was sent to evangelize the Jewish people residing in Amsterdam. Furthermore, those who were sent out to share the good news of Jesus with Gentiles were specifically told that their task was to gather in "a few selected spirits, ‘Candace-souls' (Acts 8:27) who were eager and waiting for the truth" (p. 88). Zinzendorf believed that no heathen race as a whole could be converted until the Jews had embraced Jesus as their Messiah (p. 88). Such was his understanding of Scripture.

Zinzendorf noted that the repeated efforts of the Apostles to evangelize the Jews recorded in Acts met with increased hostility and resistance. He endorsed the guidance God then gave them to turn to the Gentiles. But what particularly caught Zinzendorf's imagination was the Apostle Paul's conviction that toward the close of the Church Age, a renewed Jewish people would play an important role in God's missionary purpose. First, there would be Israel's wholesale turning to the Lord "and so all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26). In turn, Israel's service under God's direction would mean nothing less than "life from the dead" for the Gentile nations (Romans 11:15). To Zinzendorf, this meant that even the evangelization of the Jews in his day could be related to what God would do through them in the Last Day. After all, no one knew when He would commence His transforming work in their hearts.

By 1739, Moravians had been sent to Paramaribo, the capital of Dutch Suriname, where the first synagogue in all the Americas was located. They witnessed to both Jews and slaves. But because "their mission began to excite interest, especially among the Jews of the city," the civil and ecclesiastical authorities became hostile, and the mission had to be withdrawn (Hamilton 1900:186).

At that time, Count Zinzendorf and his associates were in deep trouble themselves with the political and religious authorities in Germany. Because of their nonparochial approach to denominational loyalty, they were banished from Berthelsdorf. For almost ten years, they were "strangers and exiles" (Hebrews 11:13) even in their homeland. Fortunately, a wealthy member of the nobility came to their assistance and offered them residence in a half-ruined medieval castle in Ronneburg, east of Frankfurt am Main.

Would they accept this desolate refuge in such a wild and forbidding location? Zinzendorf agreed to look it over. When he did so, he found that 56 families of Jews and gypsies were occupying the castle's outbuildings. Of course the Count, who had long sought to share his faith with leaders in Jewish communities in Europe, could not turn down this offer with its unexpected and exciting possibilities!

Soon Count Zinzendorf, his family and the missionary community took over the castle at Ronnenburg. Now the Moravians had both an operational headquarters and another new Jewish mission field! When their banishment ended, they returned to Herrnhut, and their years at Ronneburg (Wetteravia) entered the annals of God's gracious work among and through the Moravians. There Zinzendorf had carried out his first ordination—that of the Moravian Peter B÷hler. (B÷hler became God's instrument in bringing John Wesley to the assurance of his faith and the joy of full salvation.)

Count Zinzendorf's ministry among the Jewish people set precepts and examples we would all do well to emulate. He made it a rule that once a year, on Israel's solemn Day of Atonement, all Moravians should gather in their churches, get down on their knees and pray for the conversion of God's chosen people. One of the petitions he inserted in the regular Moravian Sunday morning liturgy was:

Deliver thy people Israel from their blindness; bring many of them to know Thee, till the fulness of the Gentiles is come and all Israel is saved (Hutton 1909:245-245).
Count Zinzendorf's example was equally impressive. On a voyage to the West Indies, he learned that the mother of a poor Jewish family in steerage was very sick. The record states that "he turned over his cabin to her while he spent the rest of the voyage below decks in the ill-smelling part of the ship" (Lewis 1962:19). One cannot but recall the occasion when some Jewish people commended to Jesus a Gentile of similar grace then living in Capernaum. They said of him, "He loves our nation" (Luke 7:5). Nikolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf was truly a "righteous Gentile."

Many contend that William Carey (1761-1834) was the "Father of Modern Missions," but Zinzendorf antedated Carey. Not only that, Zinzendorf spoke far more decisively and acted far more deliberately in making sure that the evangelization of the Jewish people would not be forgotten in his own day. Furthermore, he faithfully reminded Christians everywhere that Israel had a future and glorious role in the worldwide purpose of God. I regard Zinzendorf as the "Father of Modern Biblical Missions."


Hamilton, John Taylor History of the Moravian Church. Bethlehem, PA: Times Publishing Co. (1900).
Hutton, J.E. History of the Moravian Church. London: Moravian Publication Office (1909).
Lewis, Arthur James Zinzendorf, Ecumenical Pioneer. Philadelphia: The Westminster Press (1962).

 2016/4/16 21:57


If you scratch around long enough you can dig up anything about any man of God who was mightily used of the Lord down through the ages.

Interestingly most of these "discernment" websites are run by calvinsits who never seem to bat an eye at the atrocities of their hero John Calvin.

I wonder how many people Count Zinzendorf had imprisoned, tortured and killed?

The answer is none. Zinzendorf had a huge influence on Wesley and christianity as a whole. I would think that if anyone was going to discern he was off the wall it would be the great John Wesley.

 2016/4/16 22:02

Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 453


In 1753 a man named Henry Rimius claimed to have infiltrated the Moravians and wrote a book called "A Candid Narrative of the Rise and Progress of the Herrnhutters" which accused Zinzendorf of all sorts of spectacular crimes, including "Kabbalistic sex rites."

(I am not an expert on Judaism, but I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as "Kabbalistic sex rites.")

As far as I can tell, there was no 17th century Rosicrucian Order. The whole thing was a literary hoax by a very orthodox Lutheran pastor named Johannes Valentinus Andreae. Modern occult societies who call themselves Rosicrucians and claim to be part of some ancient mystery tradition are not in on the joke.

Anyway, the OP is a good read even though I disagree with its assessment of Zinzendorf.

Wayne Kraus

 2016/4/16 23:29Profile

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1161
Germany NRW


A-servant: Do you have a closer walk with God than Zinzendorf? Do you want to lift your head and look God and Zinzendorf into the eyes on judgement day while you reiterate this statement?
Do you think you are doing the Holy Spirits work or the devils work by publishing such a statement?
I do not care about the validity of the rest of your post, if you call this "research". What would you you think of someone would pass on a vicious rumour about you and call this "research"?

 2016/4/17 2:19Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


Actually, since this created such an uproar I did look into a few
of the listed sources and until this moment cannot prove the author
of "The Hidden Agenda of The Order of the Mustard Seed"
Mishel Montague wrong, some sources paint an even less rosy picture.

If Wesley is right with his critic on Zinzendorf, then we should understand why

There is a follow up by Mishel, apparently written years later:

"The Zinzendorf of Rick Joyner and other Neo-Pentecostals is far
different from the Zinzendorf we discover by going back to period texts."

Examining Count Nikolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf (1700-1760)

This is based on texts of that period, so most likely takes hours to verify,
but someone like you narrowpath should do it, in our all interest.
Then you can come back and ask me that question again.

 2016/4/17 6:06Profile


The writer of the article in the link given by a-servant, that is David Cloud, Way of Life Literature:

is doing what a writer in another post on SI points out, that these Calvinistic 'Discernment Ministers' are apt to do that is to say they wipe out a whole denomination or movement because they find one of its members is at fault, and without having sufficient knowledge of the subject they are discussing, which is what they object to when it is pointed out that their mentor John Calvin was a murderer.

Cloud plainly does not understand Quakerism in the least and has not studied its history, which I have. Please read what Robert Barclay says about Immediate Revelation:

Seeing "no man knoweth the Father but the Son, and he to whom the Son revealeth him"; and seeing the "revelation of the Son is in and by the Spirit" (Matt. 11:27); therefore the testimony of the Spirit is that alone by which the true knowledge of God hath been, is, and can be only revealed; who as, by the moving of his own Spirit, he disposed the chaos of this world into that wonderful order wherein it was in the beginning, and created man a living soul, to rule and govern it, so, by the revelation of the same Spirit, he hath manifested himself all along unto the sons of men, both patriarchs, prophets, and apostles; which revelations of God by the Spirit, whether by outward voices and appearances, dreams, or inward objective manifestations in the heart, were of old the formal object of their faith, and remain yet so to be, since the object of the saints' faith is the same in all ages, though held forth under divers administrations. Moreover, these divine inward revelations, which we make absolutely necessary for the building up of true faith, neither do NOR CAN EVER CONTRADICT THE OUTWARD TESTIMONY OF THE SCRIPTURES, or right and sound reason. Yet from hence it will not follow, that the divine revelations are to be subjected to the test, either of the outward testimony of the Scriptures, or of the natural reason of man, as to a more noble or certain rule and touchstone; for this divine revelation and inward illumination, is that which is evident and clear of itself, forcing, by its own evidence and clearness, the well-disposed understanding to assent, irresistibly moving the same thereunto, even as the common principles of natural truths do move and incline the mind to a natural assent: as, that the whole is greater than its part, that two contradictories can neither be both true, nor both false.

§I. It is very probable, that many carnal and natural Christians will oppose this proposition; who being wholly unacquainted with the movings and actings of God's Spirit upon their hearts, judge the same nothing necessary; and some are apt to flout at it as ridiculous; yea, to that height are the generality of Christians apostatised and degenerated, that though there be not anything more plainly asserted, more seriously recommended, nor more certainly attested to, in all the writings of the holy Scriptures, yet nothing is less minded and more rejected by all sorts of Christians, than immediate and divine revelation; insomuch that once to lay claim to it is matter of reproach. Whereas of old none were ever judged Christians, but such as "had the Spirit of Christ" (Rom. 8:9). But now many do boldly call themselves Christians, who make no difficulty of confessing they are without it, and laugh at such as say they have it. Of old they were accounted "the sons of God, who were led by the Spirit of God" (ibid. v. 14). But now many aver themselves sons of God, who know nothing of this leader; and he that affirms himself so led, is, by the pretended orthodox of this age, presently proclaimed a heretic. The reason hereof is very manifest, viz.: Because many in these days, under the name of Christians, do experimentally find, that they are not acted nor led by God's Spirit; yea, many great doctors, divines, teachers, and bishops of Christianity (commonly so called) have wholly shut their ears from hearing, and their eyes from seeing this inward guide, and so are become strangers unto it; whence they are, by their own experience, brought to this strait, either to confess that they are as yet ignorant of God, and have only the shadow of knowledge, and not the true knowledge of him, or that this knowledge is acquired without immediate revelation.

The early Quakers were an enirely different kettle of fish to their later kind even from the second generation, which is common after revivals. They splintered into three main factions around the 19th C and today you will find 'Atheist Quakers'.

At the outset though, they were Christ contered Bible believing holy men and women who turned the British Isles upside down. As always, as J has pointed out in his excellent post, the leaders of churches were up in arms against their claims that Christ is to be our primary teacher through the HS. George Fox knew his Bible more than anyone and so did the early Quakers.

What Christian will not say that it is by the Holy Spirit revealing it to them when asked how they know what they read in the Bible is the truth? Men of letters though desire to keep their superior position in interpreting scripture when even Augustine said:

"It is the inward master that teacheth, it is Christ that teacheth, it is inspiration that teacheth: where this inspiration and unction is wanting, it is in vain that words from without are beaten in." And thereafter: "For he that created us, and redeemed us, and called us by faith, and dwelleth in us by his Spirit, unless he speaketh unto us inwardly, it is needless for us to cry out."

Barclay's Apology 2nd Proposition.

Richard Foster has definitely departed from his origins and has been instrumental along with others, in bringing about this modern mixture of the true meaning of Contemplative Spirituality with the eastern religions.

The meaning of the word has changed from:

A state of mature Christianity, where a man reaches the full stature of Christ, and though many trials has come to trust Him entirely, as he gives himself entirely to Him and the promises of God are fulfilled in him and he is enabled to walk in practical being able to enter at will, a state of altered consciousness where a man no longer thinks rationally and is therefore entirely open to demonic influences.

This movement has infiltrated the church more and more and even genuine believers can be fooled into joining them. But if you throw out the baby along with the bathwater, you stand at risk of joining those lettered legalistic men without compassion or love, who deny a living faith and quell the hunger and thirst for righteousness that the true mystics knew.

 2016/4/17 6:34

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