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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : America Has Fallen - Mike Fuselier

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 Re:

I really like to stay close to the Word, Jeff. So, I will list some scriptures in the NT about Jesus and the Apostles talking about nations. We need the perspective of the Word of God, not our own reasoning if it is not in line with God's Word.

I can't list them, now. Got a busy day of travel ahead.

Also, I don't think there is any point in throwing isms into the conversation, because we're just having a conversation about what the Word says. No reason to herd someone into a camp that they don't belong in. I just think something is wrong with that tactic in dialogues. Let's try not to do that and just search the scriptures.

Blessings.

 2016/3/31 10:28
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Query: how many true Christians do you think there are in the USA? Not perfect, and perhaps sleeping, but true born again believers?(population is around 320 million).


_________________
Todd

 2016/3/31 10:37Profile









 Re:

Romans 1:18 says for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. And then we see the consequences of rejecting the Creator over creation.

It would seem to be the Romans 1:18 through 32 could be applied collectively over a nation that rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Meerly an observation.

 2016/3/31 10:38









 Re:

I can do the same when I have time (Revelation is full of references to nations showing God is not oblivious to them) & you still never answered my very first question:

If in the New Covenant God has ZERO speaking to/dealing with physical nations as a whole, because (in your explanation/view) His covenant & dealing with nations in the OT was only a covenant with Israel as God's chosen people, then why did God send Jonah to preach "repent" to wicked, heathen, non-covenantal Ninevah?

And all the passages in Isaiah concerning Syria, & Egypt, etc.? Do we explain all those away as metaphors not actually bearing any resemblance to the actual nations/kingdoms?

Again, I can quote the same scriptures on "we are a holy nation, a royal priesthood" of believers. I agree. I said that already. But that doesn't mean God is oblivious to physical specific nations. Isaiah is ful of references to several of them. If "historical", why? God only had covenant in the OT with Israel? If they are of the "Prophetic Futurist" interpretation, then why is God pointing out ANY nations at all? So we must then conclude they are only spiritualized metaphors ONLY & God didn't even ever mean actual Egypt, or any other non-Isreal, non-NT Christian Kingdom of God nations? I believe that's an error of over-sporitualizing EVERYTHING in scripture by some scriptures to keep our theological/eschatological contstruct/paradigm standing. And I like to stick close to the Word too, but ALL of it, & I also don't use the Written Word to explain away the prophetic Word. That's what the Cessationist's do. Like John MacArthur saying he's Sola Scriptura, but then having to explain away the definition of prophecy/prophesying to fit his man made doctrine of cessationism. But I digress...
Anyways, that's just my 2 cent observation. 😊
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/3/31 10:39









 Re:

Do a study in the NT on the word NATION, and see the Lord's words and the Apostle's words regarding your word study. It will be enlightening.

In Paul's letters we have 3 occurrences.

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

James thru Jude - 1 occurrence

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Revelation - 2 occurrences - "men out of every nation". God did not save any nations, just men out of every nation.

Rev_5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev_14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Do you see the Apostles calling for national repentance of earthly nations?

No, but you do see the Lord saying "go into all the world, preach the gospel to every CREATURE (not nation).

The balance is that when you preach to every creature (men/women), they become a witness to all the nations.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

There are no old testament prophets commissioned to call an earthly nation set aside for God to repentance.

Everyone has always know that when Jesus said "teach all nations", He means to teach all men that are born-again what the Lord has commanded.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


There are your main verses in the NT. You can't build a doctrine on Matt 28:19. It is enough that God is calling ALL MEN everywhere to repent.

Beyond that, the Church gets involved in politics and says this nation is a Christian nation or that nation is not a Christian nation. There is only one Christian nation and that is the Body of Christ.

That is all I have time for today.

Hey, if God gives you the opportunity to place an ad in USA Today and call all men to repentance that would be wonderful, but He is not interested in setting up a Theocracy on earth over a physical nation.

Let's preach the gospel and forget about politics. They don't go together.

 2016/3/31 10:51









 Re:

Again, I am not unfamiliar with any of these scriptures (I said that already?). But you still didn't really answer any of my questions or follow my basic logic layout in other previous thread explanations. And I preach the Gospel to every creature regardless of their physical nation & pray for & support the work in "the nations" & politics has NEVER been spoken as "the answer" from me, EVER (so again you reply, don't answer my specific questions & then lump me in with a straw men argument? - Tiring routine really).

And you end with scoffing, sarcastic, (pretty routine from you sadly) hyperbole comments that show you are a "practical cessationist". I have nothing more to say I haven't already said.

God Bless you in your pursuit of truth brother,
In Christ,
Jeff

 2016/3/31 10:56
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

At what point is it enough in Gods eyes? If we apply the Chronicles passage about "if you call my name" and repent then I will heal your land, etc.

How many must repent? How many true but sleeping Christians have to wake up? How many non Christians must be saved?

10%? 25%? 75%?

Do we really think that a revival will happen where the majority of the US is saved? I thought these were the last days and judgment was nigh. If there is a huge revival will it still be the "last days?" Will judgment still be nigh?


_________________
Todd

 2016/3/31 11:43Profile









 Re:

That's a good question TMK. And the fact is, some things are known & belong specifically only to the Lord. I don't know. I personally think the die has already been cast, & the Lord has already decreed what is coming because the outcry in the streets (and in all public forums including the church buildings, the forums, the pulpits, the workplaces, etc.) went out in America for YEARS (maybe decades) & went MOSTLY totally unheeded & explained away. I do believe many more will come into the kingdom in America in time of judgement than have in recent years in relative peace. But as for numbers, percentages, etc. - I have no idea. The Lord knows. There is the example of Lot & Sodom, but was that a "hard principle" or how God dealt specifically with them? I don't know, but As both Leonard Ravenhill & Billy Graham famously said, "If God doesn't judge America, he owes Sodom & Gomorrah an apology". Sodom's sins have been FAR surpassed in America. I don't have all the answers. I know what the scriptures say. And I know what the Lord has been consistently revealing to his servants the prophets in this land for many years now. I think Islam worldwide is growing at an all time high rate & will continue to. But, more Muslims have converted to Christ in the last decade than the last 1,400 years combined! Chew on that for a moment. So at the same time wickedness is abounding, God's eternal purposes are not thwarted! Again, I don't have every answer. The scribes/teachers often think they do, but the infallible/inerrant text of the Word doesn't detail every detail of God's work with every person, era, nations, etc. through all of history until Christ's return. Blueprints & "seeing in part through a glass dimly" is there, but only the Lord sees it all to the end from the beginning. And I'm ok with that! Lol. 😊 Some people think if they can't understand & explain EVERYTHING, then it must not be true at all. This is a great cloak of pride ("knowledge puffs up..") that exalts ones own self & knowledge above everyone else - including the Lord & His Spirit. I wonder how many scribes stood against Agabus with a million questions, a million texts about "not worrying about tomorrow", etc.? Fact is, there could be a "Biblical text passage case" made against him (or anything if the Logos is not empowered by the Rhema). Doctrines are provable from the Word. Modern Prophecies are not really. Don't get me wrong here - they can be tested to not be "unBiblical", but you can't "prove" everything from verses alone. This is why it's more comfortable for intellectual practical Cessationist's to reinterpret & exlplain away the prophetic gifts altogether. It's more comfortable for them. But if Agabus' prophetic word wasn't heard, the saints in Jerusalem would have starved to death & died! For pride & intellectual arguments where the Spirit is rejected & done so in the vein of using the scriptures as a defense to do so. Tragic.

 2016/3/31 12:06
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I agree- but the point I was trying to make was if there is a huge national revival to such a degree that judgment is staved off for another 500 years then it would seem doom and gloom prophecies regarding the USA are not true.

So if we believe Wilkerson's famous prophecy, for example, how can we also believe for a huge unprecedented national revival? Was Wilkerson only prophesying what MIGHT happen? If that is the case then it is more of a warning than a prophecy.


_________________
Todd

 2016/3/31 14:09Profile









 Re:

" doom and gloom prophecies regarding the USA "

David Wilkerson was frequently criticized by that phrase.Sad that this phrase is still being used in conjunction with his name............bro Frank

 2016/3/31 15:08





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