| the future|
"We are at the very beginning of time for the human race. It is not unreasonable that we grapple with problems. But there are tens of thousands of years in the future. Our responsiblity is to do what we can, learn what we can, improve the solutions, and pass them on."
If you hold to the idea that the return of Christ is imminent and that the Revelation is soon to be fulfilled, the optimism of Feynman is out the window and you will not act and behave in a manner that supports the long term prosperity of humanity. Rather, you will be making preparations, storing up food and getting ready for the big one and generally not working for the good of all. Isn't this wrongheaded and even a sin?
| 2005/5/18 16:20|
| Re: the future|
i've come to the conclusion that your major problem is that you're not "kingdom minded" at all ... Christ said His "kingdom" was no part of this world, yet you seem to place far more credence in the things of man than you do the things of Christ, such as the audacity to place more value in the "word" of man against the "Word" of God ... So ...
Your Mr. Feynman is calculating man's future in terms of (tens of thousands of years) when God calculates the future of His own in terms of (eternity) ... "For whosever believeth in Him might not perish but have everlasting life" ...
You know i pray for you often, and am very angry at the devil (not you) for having such powers to blind you in the way that he has, and does, but i have faith that one day the light bulb of God is gonna light up in that brain of yours ... Now take a minute as a confessed believer, and think about what you've posted here ...
"If you hold to the idea that the return of Christ is imminent and that the Revelation is soon to be fulfilled, the optimism of Feynman is out the window and you will not act and behave in a manner that supports the long term prosperity of humanity.
"Brother Bub have you read The Revelation? ... To the "kingdom minded" it don't get any more "optimistic" than "The Revelation", even it it means a saved persons physical hardship or death ... Physical death has no rule over us no matter how it comes ... Do you see Christ return as "pessimism"? ... i sure pray to God you don't ... Do you see Christ return as being unprosperous to humanity? ... At the rate this world is speeding downhill can you "optimistically" see humanity doing even another 100 years? ... You might, i can't, and i for one look foward to the day that God intervenes and stops all this madness" ... The "kingdom" minded" know that the only behavior we can do to support the long term prosperity of wicked humanity is to tell them about salvation thru Christ while there is still time ... Bottom line is folk can make all the outside of God plans they want to towards a long and prosperous future for humanity, but The Revelation says one day all of mans small minded plans, schemes and earthly kingdoms will all have to make way for "His kingdom on earth" ... Whereas every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that [b]JESUS CHRIST IS LORD[/b] ...
"Rather, you will be making preparations, storing up food and getting ready for the big one and generally not working for the good of all. Isn't this wrongheaded and even a sin"?
Brother Bub in the love of Christ i have to tell you that what you wrote here is the "sin" ... "Kingdom minded" folk ain't afraid of whats coming down the pike, we trust God ... All thru out scripture He's constanly saying to us, "He that hath an ear, let Him hear" ... Folk think God ain't talking but He's talking everyday, it's just that most, as with yourself, don't like what He's saying so you tune Him out by filling your mind with the worthless crap of the creation and not the Creator ... God will never let those who pay diligent attention to Him be ignorant of what He's saying ... And as to making preperations and storing up, the "kingdom minded" know who went away to prepare a place for us, and we know not only where to store up, but also what ... Only what we do for Christ will last ...
Brother Bub please get your mind off the "kingdom of men" and get it attached to "the kingdom of God" ... Please man ... in Jesus name ... PLEASE!
| 2005/5/18 17:52||Profile|
| Re: the future|
Quote:There's a mighty big pile outside this window. :-D
the optimism of Feynman is out the window
| 2005/5/18 18:04||Profile|
Thanks for your reply and for your sincere concern. You are correct; I am not kingdom minded. Jesus tells us that the Kingdom of God will come like a thief in the night and that no one know when this will be. So, in my mind this is all up to God and we cannot prepare except to remain steadfast in our faith in Christ the sacrifical lamb and the forgiveness He brought to all who willingly accept it.
My concern is with the values of Christianity being subsummed into and subordianted to the fatalistic end of times movement that is gaining increasing influence in the Church. People are starving in this world, yet our (US) government, supposedly being administered by Chirstians, sends our solders off into an unnecessary war that kills thousands upon thousands, demonstrating that Christians are at war with Muslims and want only their destruction. I'm concerned that people are using the Revelation as a kind of map or timetable for the end of times and using it (even unintentionally) to lead people astray when Jesus clearly tells us this is futile. I'm concerned that the commands of Christ to love one another and help the poor are being ignored because end of timers have more important things to do. What good is it to invest in international rural development to support subsistence farmers in making a decent living when the world is going to end soon anyway? You see the trap? End of times theology is a corruption of the teachings of Jesus. It is a snare to divert even the elect.
I can tell you have an earnest heart and are a true follow of Christ. For this you are and will be blessed. Just lets keep our focus on what Jesus demonstrated and commanded of us. "what ever you do unto the least of these you do unto me." Isn't this sufficient?
| 2005/5/21 14:57|
| Re: the kingdom|
I do have a few questions, if you dont' mind. If the "kingdom" is yet to come, how do you explain these verses?
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
And then there's this one verse....
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
That has already happened in 70 AD.
Finally there is .......
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Could you just give me a little exposition please, so I can try to understand what you are saying? Thank you.
| 2005/5/22 6:58|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Rubbish|
"We are at the very beginning of time for the human race."
According to... a scientist?
But there are tens of thousands of years in the future.
While I would certainly relate to a wrongheaded approach to...
Quote:... when it comes to eschatological thinking, this is just as absurd, to be getting ones theology from a scientist.
Rather, you will be making preparations, storing up food and getting ready for the big one and generally not working for the good of all. Isn't this wrongheaded and even a sin?
I am not kingdom minded. Jesus tells us that the Kingdom of God will come like a thief in the night and that no one know when this will be.
Unfortunately your argument is once again not with any of us but the Lords own words about [i]Who's[/i] kingdom we are talking about...
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; [b]so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[/b] Mat 24:36-39
Am somewhat puzzled by how much scripture must be done away with to promote this far fetched ideal of an increasing 'Kingdom' as it were, that Christianity is somehow going to continue to grow and grow and then ultimately take over the world by increment, thus ushering in Christ's return and then [i]peace[/i].
It is a contradiction and why all of scripture needs to be considered, irregardless of whichever point of view we might want to saddle up with.
There is truth in the fallacy of 'date setting' and 'newspaper theology' and understand just as much why it is wrongheaded to sit back on our heels as it were, even Paul alluded to it and summed up and stated it correctly:
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". 2Th 2:1-12
[b]as that the day of Christ is at hand[/b]; or is at this instant just now coming on; as if it would be within that year, in some certain month, and on some certain day in it; which notion the apostle would have them by no means give into, for these reasons, because should Christ not come, as there was no reason to believe he would in so short a time, they would be tempted to disbelieve his coming at all, at least be very indifferent about it; and since if it did not prove true, they might be led to conclude there was nothing true in the Christian doctrine and religion; and besides, such a notion of the speedy coming of Christ would tend to indulge the idle and disorderly persons among them in their sloth and negligence: and now for these, and for the weighty reasons he gives in the next verse, he dissuades them from imbibing such a tenet; for though the coming of Christ is sometimes said to be drawing nigh, and to be quickly, yet so it might be, and not at that instant; besides, such expressions are used with respect to God, with whom a thousand years are as one day, and one day as a thousand years; and because the Gospel times, or times of the Messiah, are the last days, there will be no other dispensation of things until the second coming of Christ; and chiefly they are used to keep up the faith, and awaken the hope and expectation of the saints with respect to it. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read, "the day of the Lord"; and so the Vulgate Latin version; and accordingly the Syriac and Ethiopic versions, "the day of our Lord".
I am also grieved that in perhaps what can be often alluded to is the thought of [i]being on God's side[/i] as it were somehow gets misconstrued into [i]wanting[/i] to see God pour out His wrath. And instead of reverence and fear and awe and [i]sadness[/i]...
"Behold, I send my messenger and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.
But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap."
"Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" Rev 6:15-17
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
But to do away with what is written is a colossal error. To be willfully ignorant and setting ourselves up as judges against what is clearly portrayed in scripture and still to call ourselves Christians...
the long term prosperity of humanity
Is that what Christianity teaches?
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Mat 7:13-15
"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
Our responsiblity is to do what we can, learn what we can, improve the solutions, and pass them on
The whole meaning of life summed up neatly for us. Live 80-90 years, improve the conditions/solutions and pass them on while you go to your grave only soon to be forgotten, all the days of your miserable life ... to what end?
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
This is sheer madness.
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
This is also something that I have been musing much on and will surely give some a fit but it is becoming more and more apparent...
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. Joh 6:53-56
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Apparently God is not as concerned with the flesh as we are, each one ending in destruction. That mankind thinks it can pull it's self up by the boot straps is insane. This universal Utopian humanitarian ideal no matter how much Christian terminology is attempted to be mixed into it or worse the other way around is a lie. Until death is eradicated and until sin is eradicated there will be no peace, no life, no meaning, no nothing.
That God has given a free will to choose and men have fallen ... [i]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved[/i]. Joh 3:19-20 ... that in effect man is quite capable of bringing about his own destruction and has and will continue to do so and to attribute the wrongheadedness of the very evil that they commit to be somehow Gods problem and fault. All the suffering, all the wars, all the poor, all that is wrong with the world lays at our feet, it is either directly or indirectly our fault, we are either the very cause or the very perpetrators of all that ails us. It is why we are rightly condemned and why we are justified rightly as sinners in Gods sight, there are [i]none[/i] that...
"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
"All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead." Ecc 9:2-3
What supreme foolishness it is to think contrary to scripture, to meddle and twist it to our own liking. To disbelieve what the Lord promised:
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Can hear the defense's coming already, but the subtlety is in the very same words of Peter and maybe should have just gone here in the first place:
"That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2Pe 3:2-13
"Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." 1Co 15:15-19
"[i]the optimism of Feynman is out the window[/i]"
Would certainly agree with that.
There is something underlying all this, something not quite being said, something almost sinister, hidden. These preterist views and the rest, that Jesus Christ will not be coming back to rule and reign on this earth in true physical, living, breathing, reality, that is now somehow spritualised to mean something other than the hope expressed in...
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
Perhaps I have failed to express it adequately, but this is surely amiss and a non-Christian to dictate, no matter how learned a scientist he was, he is just as dead as the rest, along with his optimism.
| 2005/5/22 10:38||Profile|
Thanks for your reply. I hear what you are saying about mankind being corrupt and not able to put himself and the world right. But on the other hand, what are the purposes of the teachings of Jesus -- love your enemy, love your neighbor, forgive those who trespass against you, the parables, etc. -- if not for correction and the possibility of men and women being better people in the future? Christ gives us a recipe for how to live in such a way as we do not contribute to the corruption of the world. ANd if we strive after this and accept the Grace of God we receive through prayer, I believe it is possible for humans to make a better world. (Don't you?)
Long ago I gave up on trying to figure out the future, and committed to doing my best each day. I fall down and get up again over and over. Some days I get it right (well almost :). Some days are a waste.
The days I extend kindness to the beggar, love my neighbor and keep my heart in the right place I feel connected to God in a special way. Something is bright in my soul. Others i live in depression and fight just to make it to work and home again in one piece.
I don't know when the Kingdom will come and I really don't care; having the promise of salvation in Christ Jesus and working to do the Lord's will is sufficient. So, the fretting about who is the antichrist and from where he will come and when and how the end will come, well, I find these to be a complete waste of time and, even worse, counter to the teachings of Jesus. Can you preach "the end is near" and still go about caring for the spiritually sick and tending to the poor? I don't think they will listen.
Yes, the way is narrow. But a just God would make it possible for the person born in a society that does not know Him or Jesus to be saved. Otherwise He created them for hell and I cannot believe this. So something else is at work that we do not understand because clearly many billions of people through the ages did not have any exposure to Jesus/God the Father/Holy Spirit and from what I understand the doctrines of the Christian Church -- we Quakers have no doctrine save "there is that of God in every person" -- say all these people are going to hell. This is completely unjust and unloving and I cant accept it. What I am left with is that it is up to us, through the power of the Holy Ghost, to lift up and spread the Love of God in this world and make it a better place. Because this Holy Ghost is far more powerful than the nihilist forces of evil, I believe we humans can make progress for many years to come.
| 2005/5/22 16:17|
esus tells us that the Kingdom of God will come like a thief in the night and that no one know when this will be.
Is this another personal revelation or do you have a scripture for it?
| 2005/5/22 18:03||Profile|
| Re: obsession with the future distracts us from present responsibilities|
Rather, you will be making preparations, storing up food and getting ready for the big one and generally not working for the good of al
This quote reminds me of: 1 Thes. 3:6 -15 which is a warning against idleness. The Thessalonians were expecting Christ's return at anytime - and, as a result they were becoming idle. But Paul warned them:
"Never tire of what is right." vs. 13
Ever since then a lot of Christians have been convinced that Christ was about to return. They were all wrong!
Yes, I agree with Bubbaguy's heart concern - that Christians can become so convinced of the immenent return of Christ that they become idle in the work that GOD has called them to do - to love others, thus to show Christ to them. They become self-absorbed, self- protective, stashing food for themselves, etc. This is more like a fear reaction rather than a trust reaction.
"SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD and then these things will be added to you." Matt. 6:33
Sometimes I think that the obsession to explain the future seems more like a desire to feel in control - to box spiritual things into carnal mindsets.
Those who are in tune to God's Spirit, and living in obedience will be prepared, and I believe that God will reveal to them what they need to know just like he did in ages past. He comes as a thief only to those who are unprepared and out of touch. They are SPIRITUALLY asleep (even though they may be experts on escatology). The natural mind will not be able to discern the ways of God - no matter how well they discect the book of Revelation.
I think that the spirit of Bubbaguy's message is worthy of our consideration. The quote may not come from a believer, but, I think we need look beyond and see what God is saying.
| 2005/5/22 18:33||Profile|
"Is this another personal revelation or do you have a scripture for it?"
Matthew 24:43-44 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
and Luke duplicates Matt. with
Luke 12:39-40 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
| 2005/5/22 21:12|