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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Is Billy Graham a Universalist??? (see USA Today)

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Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


Someone Casting out demons, in the name of Jesus is one thing, someone professing to be a christian yet, preaching another gospel, is much different. We are to judge with righteous judgement.

Gal1:6 "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to PERVERT the gospel of Christ. 8But even if WE, or an ANGEL from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be ACCURSED. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
11But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Compramising with another gospel is evil. To endorse another gospel, a false gospel, yet stake claims to a some what biblical gospel, is mixture.

If you buy a drink that is super healthy, and will boost your health, yet you place just one tiny drop of poisen in it, it spoils the whole thing, it is no longer safe to drink, and now is tainted and will not bring about its original goal.

So the same is with the word of God, if we preach only half the truth, and leave out the other, we have decieved our hearers into thinking they have heard the whole truth. And a half truth is an untruth.

If we fail to tell those who believe another gospel, the ways of their error, but instead say we love them and do not want to bring division, we really do not love this people. If we loved them we would warn them out of love, not sugarcoat our message, or fail to even mention there downfall, and the error of their way.

True unity will come when the truth is stood on, and upheld. Christ did not come to bring peace but a sword.

I agree with RECIEVED TEXT, when he says "The evangelist tries to have it both ways, but it is impossible. This is why Graham has been called “Mr. Facing Both Ways”!"

The doctrines of the Catholic Church, are totally opposite to that of scripture. They teach another gospel, one of works, not grace through faith alone. The Jews stumbled at this one point, saying that one must be cicumsized to be saved. This was another gospel, and was condemned. The Catholic church teaches, that you are saved by works, and grace. They put their followers in bondage to many teachings of works ie,infant baptisim, confession, rosaries, scapula, etc

They teach Idolatry; Worship of Mary, praying to saints, worship of the Eucharist, worship of the Pope, and priests etc.

This is a few of the evil doctrines of the Catholic Church.

These doctrines I believe without a shadow of a dought are doctrines of demons. To take part in these, to compramise with these, would be perverting the gospel of Christ. Would be submiting to another gospel, would be compramise, with man, and satan.
One cannot say he loves good, and then say he loves evil. This is hypocritical.

I believe 1st. The Roman Catholic Church is not true Christianity, of the bible, and therefore should not be said to be Christian.

It is Not the Doctrine of The Bible, But another gospel, a false gospel, a doctrine of demons.

If we love those who are in the catholic church, and those we are in other beliefs other than christianity of the bible, we must warn them, of the only way, the narrow road, through Jesus Christ alone, and faith in him alone. We must denounce, all other ways to heaven, and all their claims. We must clearly and faithfully without any compramise, make this very clear. We must preach the whole Counsel of God.

True love will speak the truth, no matter how much it may hurt its hearers, no matter what the consequences may be to us.

Paul instructed Timothy greatly on this subject, of keeping his doctrine pure, of commanded all false teachers to cease, and to preaching the word.

In this day and age, When The Gospel is given when the sinner doesnt even know he is a sinner.
We sow seed on stony ground, without first plowing the ground.
Grace, and Mercy are given, without repentence.
Heaven without Hell.
Word without the Spirit.
A prayer or descion, or walking an aile, is the trust of a sinners salvation, rather than totally in Christ.
The Plan of salvation turned into a mental, belief of the existence of God, or believing in the truths of the word, that they are true, yet not instructed in the need to trust In Christ Alone, in His merits, not just that He exists or what he said is true.

We must get back to the word. I am trying to do this, and I encourage and exhort all those who are sincerly following Christ to, seek to know the doctrines of the bible.
Its our responsiblity as my signature says.

Blessings Joshua

 2005/5/19 3:36Profile

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777

 Re: Our trust is not in leaders, but in God alone

True unity will come when the truth is stood on, and upheld.

mmmmmmm.... this quote raises red flags in my mind. It's easy to say, I believe in... But so what! At best, we have less than a drop in the ocean of God's vast truth. And everyone, in some way is affected by the values of their culture, their backgrounds, their sin nature etc. We deceive ourselves if we don't wnat to accept this in ourselves and each other.

I'd say that true unity happens at the "foot of the cross" - when God's people fall on their faces in brokeness, surrendering all their own righteousness, their sense of "rightness", their pride, their false trusts, their love for the things of this world.

Easy believism seems to avoid this path - and that's why it's so appealing and popular. You can have the best of both worlds.

From what I understand, Billy Graham once said that only 10%, or maybe even 5% of those who come forward for salvation in his crusades are genuinely saved. Is this his "fault"? Is it because he preaches a message of easy believism? Perhaps. Pehaps not.

Perhaps it is because humans have a tendency to follow after a man. However, salvation does not come through a man. It is GOD HIMSELF who alone brings true salvation. Anyone who follows after the voice of a man, without being led by the Spirit will not arrive at true salvation. (Thus the disturbing statistic.)

People tend to put spiritual heros on pedestals, expecting them to be above the common temptations and sins of humans. In the Bible, God's appointed leaders were all prone to wander. God refined their faith through failures. He didn't write them off (unless they refused to repent)

So too today, anyone - leader or not will likely have times when they drift away from God - when he sends sifting fires.

I believe that God often permits the flaws of leaders to remain in order to keep people from putting their faith in any person. No one has arrived. No one has the complete line on God's truth. Yet God's uses his servants for his glory. He works in spite of man, maybe more than because of man.

While we don't want to slander any leader, we also need to guard against deifying them. If we don't want to admit that leaders are prone to fall into temptations, then we will not pray for them appropriately.

Let us fix our eyes, not on man, but on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith.


 2005/5/19 8:34Profile

 Re: Levels of a fallen state

That's ok friend if we disagree, I think you see the same way as I see it, you are just looking at it from a different angle, and believe me, I see what you are saying and believe me, I know what you mean.

This biblical quote that was presented:

11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

A wicked person is a religeous person who has gone from being righteous to wicked.

The LORD showed me one year, actually had me to write down as He was dictating His words, the difference between SIN, TRANSGRESSION, INIQUITY, and WICKEDNESS.

These are stages that a righteous man goes thru when he leaves his place with God. Wickedness is the height of mockery against God.

God is angry with the wicked everyday because they know who He is but they don't do what they know to do. That is why Jesus called that generation that He came in a wicked and perverse generation. He called those who were supposed to be pillers of the law, white walled and an open tomb. They are always ready to shed blood when one of God's chosen enters their gate. They have the poisen of asps to twist the word to make it of no effect to the hearers, because of their traditions. When it came to the law, they spake the law, but their lives became a cursing and not a blessing, as Jesus said, do what they say, but don't do what they do. When a man becomes wicked, only here in that state can he committ the unpardonable sin.


 2005/5/19 8:57

Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632

 Re: billy graham


well said.

I have to question whether the thousands that come to "salvation" at one time at these crusades are real and lasting- but as you said, is it the people or the man? It does say the gate is narrow and only few enter. I am sure there are quite a few who have honestly turned to Jesus and have continued to walk with him- thank the Lord for this!

When Sept 11 happened, I watched as Graham spoke up about the people turning back to God. He was the only speaker of the group of ministers who spoke about repentance in any way. (by the way, I accidently typed "monsters" instead of ministers- hmmm, coincidence?)

I really believe that the tone with which these subjects are brought up- make for half of the problem.

There is one way to express concern with fear and trembling about our own walk as well- or there is a way or tone which amost gleefully anounces all the wrong doing that we can find.

I am much more concerned with the likes of the new mega churches and mega books and 'big buck, make me feel happy' preachers. (see
[url=]Business Week- Evangelical America[/url])

In Him, Chanin


 2005/5/19 9:04Profile

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777

 Three Temptations of the Christian leader

Here is more food for thought (and PRAYER) on the subject:

Three Temptations of the Christian Leader
They're not what you think they are.

by columnist Kevin A. Miller May 2, 2001

Temptations become even more difficult to resist when I don't recognize them. Oh, sure, I can spot bank robbery and adultery and murder. But certain evils fly in under my spiritual radar because they don't look evil; they look like something good. It takes spiritual discernment to realize that something I eagerly want and pursue may actually destroy or weaken me and my ministry.

The late Henri Nouwen names three such temptations in his insightful book, In the Name of Jesus: Reflections on Christian Leadership:

1. The temptation to be relevant.

2. The temptation to be popular by doing something remarkable.

3. The temptation to be powerful in your leadership, to lead rather than be led.

This week you and I probably will be sent brochures promoting conferences that will help us and our churches do precisely this: become relevant, do something remarkable, and lead boldly. Such conferences offer many helpful insights, and I've benefited from some. But pause and reflect on the fact that Jesus regularly refused to do miracles on demand (John 6:26-31), that he asked many of the people who did receive his miracles not to talk about them (Mark 5:41-43), that he said some things almost certain to drive people away (John 6:53, 60, 61). And ultimately he was led away, like a lamb to the butcher.

I don't like those facts. I want to be relevant, a leader who does something remarkable. The question is, Why?

The answer, if I can peer through the murky silt and see the bottom of my spirit, is that I want to be liked, noticed, significant. I thought my drives were all about ministry for God, but it turns out they're only a little about God and a whole lot about me.

As Nouwen puts it simply and piercingly: "The question is not:
How many people take you seriously?
How much are you going to accomplish?
Can you show some results?

But: Are you in love with Jesus?"

Do I love Jesus? Really? If the answer is "mostly" or "somewhat," what has displaced my first, full love? Maybe a desire to be a Christian leader who does something relevant and remarkable.

But if the answer to "Do I love Jesus?" is an unqualified yes, then no matter how uncertain and frustrated I am, no matter how insignificant and unremarkable the current ministry, God will one day tell me, with equal certainty, "Well done!"

Copyright © 2001 by the author or Christianity Today
used with permission


 2005/5/19 9:11Profile

Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


[b]ReceivedText[/b] said:

Just a side note. To discount a cited statement by Graham, it is necessary to produce the source cited. You can't just say "I didn't find it on the internet, so it didn't exist." Or "I found this with different dates so it didn't exist." This doesn't help our discussion. 1) Produce the document or video, 2) Read or listen to it, 3) then say whether it did or did not contain the claimed information. Without this, citations are only a "see for yourself."

The burden of proof does [b]not[/b] lie on the side who sought to prove innocence, but the side who sought to prove guilt. "Innocent until [b]proven guilty[/b]," not "guilty until [b]proven innocent[/b]".

With respect to the first post, it has been shown in my first and second posts in this thread that the actual context of one of Graham's quote in [i]USA Today[/i] is that of political orientation, not of the doctrine of salvation, as the title of the thread alleges. In other words, taking Graham's words [b]completely out of context[/b].

The [i]USA Today[/i] article is the only one that is to be taken seriously because it sets itself apart as a reputable source that deserves our consideration, which another article in [i]USA Today[/i] had shown clearly unrelated to Graham's doctrine of salvation.

As for the [b]rumours[/b] spread concerning Billy Graham's TV interview, no established sources could corroborate the story. I would not consider an article in an otherwise unknown publication called [i]Battle Cry[/i] by an unknown writer [i]Jack Chick[/i] to have much weight. I am not surprised that there are some jealous people who want to fabricate or distort facts in order to attack a figure such as Billy Graham.

Had Billy Graham made such unorthodox statements, one would expect [i]Christianity Today[/i] or other more reliable periodicals to carry the story. Why should any sensible Christian believe in stories carried in sources like

If Billy Graham is indeed an universalist, he would not have been labouring in preaching the gospel until this day.


 2005/5/19 10:42Profile

Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


Karl you said,

"A wicked person is a religeous person who has gone from being righteous to wicked. "

I disagree the bible says otherwise

One example from below is the Sodomites called wicked. Gen. 13:13 "But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord."

Nelson Topical Bible shows the uses of the word throught the bible:

Wicked, the

A. Satan as “the wicked one”

Unregenerate belong to Matt. 13:38
Snatches away the good seed Matt. 13:19
World lies in 1 John 5:19
Christians can overcome Eph. 6:16; 1 John 2:13


Sodomites Gen. 13:13
Egyptians Ex. 9:27
Athaliah 2 Chr. 24:7
Haman Esth. 7:6
Jews Matt. 12:38, 45
Apostates 1 Cor. 5:13

C. State of, described as:

Desiring evil Prov. 21:10
Have no Peace Is. 48:22
Pours out evil Prov. 15:28
Refusing judgment Prov. 21:7
Cruel in their mercies Prov. 12:10
Like the troubled sea Is. 57:20
Far from God Prov. 15:29
Offering abominable sacrifice Prov. 15:8
Way is like darkness Prov. 4:19

D. God’s attitude toward:

Will not justify Ex. 23:7
Will punish Ps. 75:8
Will overthrow Prov. 21:12
Their thoughts abominable to Prov. 15:26
God hates Ps. 11:5
Made for the day of doom Prov. 16:4

E. Punishment of:

Shortened life Prov. 10:27
Soon destroyed Ps. 37:35, 36
Driven away Prov. 14:32
Slain by evil Ps. 34:21
His lamp put out Job 21:17
His triumph short Ps. 37:10
His name put out forever Ps. 9:5
Silent in the grave Ps. 31:17
God rains fire on Ps. 11:6
Cast into hell Ps. 9:17
Consumed Ps. 37:20
Will die Prov. 11:7
In the resurrection, judgment Acts 24:15

F. Attitude of believers toward:

Wonder about their prosperity Ps. 73:3
Concerned about their triumph Ps. 94:3, 4
Will not sit with Ps. 26:5
Must not envy Prov. 24:19
Will triumph over Ps. 58:10

Wickedness—all forms of evil

A. Man’s relationship to:

Not profited by Prov. 10:2
Not established by Prov. 12:3
Sells himself to 1 Kin. 21:25
Strengthens himself in Ps. 52:7
Refuses to turn from Jer. 44:5
Inside mankind Luke 11:39
Among all Jer. 44:9
Will fall by Prov. 11:5
Driven away Prov. 14:32

B. God’s punishment of, seen in:

Driving out other nations Deut. 9:4, 5
Shiloh’s destruction Jer. 7:12
Judah’s punishment Jer. 1:16
Destruction of food supply Ps. 107:33, 34
Causing the flood Gen. 6:5–7
Death of men Judg. 9:56
Destroying men Ps. 94:23

C. Attitude of the righteous toward:

Wash heart of Jer. 4:14
Struggle against Eph. 6:12
Fear to commit Gen. 39:9
Not to dwell in Ps. 84:10
Pray for end of Ps. 7:9
Confession of 1 Kin. 8:47

Thomas Nelson, Inc., Nelson’s topical Bible index [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995.


 2005/5/20 1:46Profile

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