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 Re:

Which belief system do you think is more predisposed to being enmeshed with politics?

A. Covenantal Theology

B. Dispensational Theology

 2016/2/7 9:49
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3593
Louisiana

 Re:

If God was not interested in governmental
leaders, He would have not commanded us
to pray for them.

The truth is that where there is an absence
of God in any arena of life and culture evil
is present.

We need God in our homes, in our jobs,
in our schools, and in our government.

Christian leaders that are honest and men
of integrity are to be preferred over corrupt
men.

We vote for men of integrity and principle
because this is the means that God will
use to change the unjust laws of the land.
It starts with men being saved and
enlightened, but we have been called
by God to be salt and light in this world.

True revival will affect the society that we
are living in , and that includes government


_________________
Mike

 2016/2/7 10:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by AbideinHim on 2016/2/7 10:13:47

If God was not interested in governmental
leaders, He would have not commanded us
to pray for them.



He is interested in all men.

1 Timothy 2:1-3
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Quote:
The truth is that where there is an absence of God in any arena of life and culture evil is present. We need God in our homes, in our jobs, in our schools, and in our government.



When God is in our hearts he is in our home, schools, jobs and governments. You don't need politics to get God in men's hearts, you need the preaching of the gospel.

Quote:
Christian leaders that are honest and men of integrity are to be preferred over corrupt men.



Amen to that. If we only knew their hearts. Who is that man, this year?

Quote:
True revival will affect the society that we are living in , and that includes government



Revival and the preaching of the gospel go hand in hand and change people's hearts. And people are in government, so yes I agree.

I have never seen revival come from the political machine. The Jesus people movement came during a time of great upheaval in society and during the reign of war mongering and anti God presidents of Johnson and Nixon.

I recall no revivals during Reagan and Bush. Abortion still reigned and gay rights have expanded along with Christian persecution in America.

Just curious if anyone has any insight on this. Other than praying for leaders and preaching the gospel, why don't we see instructions or examples from the apostles to get more involved in worldly politics?

 2016/2/7 11:46
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1650
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Mike we won't convince each other. I will not try, and it is as much out of respect and love as it is out of knowing there is no use.

I challenge your notions. For example, "where there is an absence of God in any arena of life and culture evil is present." Objectively, God is not absent. Objectively, evil exists where men do not like to retain God in their thoughts. The evil begins inwardly and comes from the darkened heart. Therefore, evil in "arenas of life and culture" exist not because of ungodly people in government, but because ungodly people are ungodly. There is actually unfolding before us proof positive that our efforts as Christians to weight the dice of government in "our" direction has only corrupted Christian faith (promoting ungodliness) and not proof that godly men and women in government (assuming without proof there are any) preserve moral health or prevent moral death. This is easily seen in mere observation without any particular appeal to the Scriptures which set forth a singular theme that civil government is the enemy of Christ.

Yes, we need God utterly. But, I also would ask why you fragment life into these arenas. God does not. I suggest to you, and the thinking of others that think as you do, that this fragmentation is a convenience to allow you to make your point rhetorically without actually setting forth substantive truth. I doubt you see it and I know you will disagree. It is nearly impossible to "get" someone to see that fragmentation of life is antithetical to Scripture.
Fragmentation in this way seems innocuous but it is devastating. It is an American modern invention of thought and it is thoroughly bureaucratic. It is flatly not Scriptural. The very thing you use as an identifier of our need for God is itself evidence for our need of Him in precisely the opposite way, not in arenas but fully. Men who come fully to Christ and are fully converted, fully convinced of our own badness and of His righteousness see nothing of a need for better human government, but see only a full need for Jesus to return and subject all things to Himself, knowing that we cannot do it for Him by our own devices, including and particularly the device of government.

"Christian leaders" are to be preferred? Christian leaders, in your proposition, would be "better" pimps than unsaved men. They would be better drug dealers and mafiosos. If only Christians would enter prostitution, drug cartels and criminal enterprises more, those areas could be "better." Or, do you think honestly that government is qualitatively different from those things in the face of the length of governmental history from 1 Samuel 8 until now? A history that, by the way, Samuel explained would unfold from the time that Israel rejected God's exclusive rule and chose for a co-opted reign of God and man. An explanation that defined what Israel chose as corrupt to the core in its very nature. Even our so called Judeo-Christian ethic of government, government of men is from the get go an irredeemable thing that has only ever seen an evil mixture of sinful man being overtly sinful and sinful man pretending to honor God.

Now, I admit I am baffled by the idea that "men of integrity and principle is the means that God will use to change the unjust laws of the land." Oh, it sounds true. It seems tru-ish. But, God moves thhe hearts of kings as He pleases and does not need "men of integrity". In fact, I would refer you to the Scriptures that tell us there is none good, no not one. None seek God. Every man goes after his own way. Nothing good dwells in our flesh. Governments of men are purely carnal. Also, please show us in Scripture where this proposition is true. If not, is is a new means of God's activity in the world and is something about Himself we do not get from His Word.

Our being salt and light never gets used as much as it does in this discussion. A Google search of the phrase with the word America demonstrates that in a measure. Voting is the American sacrament. It is the means American Christians choose of their own accord to express the light of the gospel, weakly stabbing a pencil mark onto a card listing fallen men as the priests of the salt and of the light; men who, in turn, weakly rely on arms of flesh to mark those cards to elect them so that they can go as such priests. Phineases and Hophnis all.


_________________
Tim

 2016/2/7 12:07Profile
dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 168
Dakotas

 Re: Heavy, Spiritual, Responsibily

dolfan writes: "It is the means American Christians choose of their own accord to express the light of the gospel, weakly stabbing a pencil mark onto a card listing fallen men as the priests of the salt and of the light; men who, in turn, weakly rely on arms of flesh to mark those cards to elect them so that they can go as such priests. Phineases and Hophnis all."


Thank you for establishing the testimony of all Christians who choose (as YOU put it) "to express the light of the gospel" as they vote in America!

What a heavy, spiritual responsibility you carry as you judge the "reason" American Christians vote!

Whew!

 2016/2/7 12:26Profile









 Re:

Very good post, dolfan.

I don't think the Christian's failure to influence government is the cause of all of America's problems, today, and certainly not the cause of the church's problems.

2 Timothy 2:2-4
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Paul, using himself as an example says to commit to faithful men the things that Timothy has heard from many witnesses about Paul's life. Paul goes onto to say, "that a good soldier of Jesus Christ does not entangle himself in the affairs of this world", indicating that it is not pleasing to the Lord.

I understand that the scriptures become quite blurred living in a land such as America. Where is the balance? What is the Christian's responsibility without becoming a dominionist and setting up a theocracy are age old questions. Did the apostles ever plan a revolt, demonstration or protest. Do you wonder what their conduct would be like in today's society?

In my reading, it seems Christians this upcoming election are more interested in issues than integrity (maybe due to fear) as they just want a man to be as forceful as Obama has been, yet forceful at the other end of the spectrum. What kind of President will Christians vote in this year? Only time will tell.



 2016/2/7 12:58
dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 168
Dakotas

 

Julius writes: "it seems Christians this upcoming election are more interested in issues than integrity (maybe due to fear) as they just want a man to be as forceful as Obama has been, yet forceful at the other end of the spectrum. What kind of President will Christians vote in this year? Only time will tell."

Thank you for establishing the testimony of Christians who (as YOU put it) "are more interested in issues than integrity (maybe due to fear)" as they vote in America!

What a heavy, spiritual responsibility you carry as you judge the "motives" behind American Christians who vote!

Whew!

If you don't want to vote... fine!! Don't vote.

And, sincerely, God Bless you for your walk with the Lord and decision!!!

I am NOT going to judge YOUR motives or quote Scripture.

There are bigger fish to fry.




 2016/2/7 13:43Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

Julius - in regard to scriptures seeming lack of encouraging saints to be involved in politics, might that be because there really was no avenue to become involved? How would a Christian "run" for Roman emperor, or procurator, or governor, etc?

I certainly don't see a blanket prohibition.


_________________
Todd

 2016/2/7 13:44Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1650
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Dspks, I have an honest question.

What is coming from Christ, new Jerusalem or new America?

If new America, then it is good and perfect. If not, then America, old, new or otherwise, is from the world and is not from God. 1 John 2:15-17.

I would really like to hear your thoughts on this question.


_________________
Tim

 2016/2/7 15:02Profile









 Re:

Is that the plumb line? If scripture says nothing specific then it is ok? That kind of thinking seems to get the church in trouble time after time as it is geared more toward logic and "leaning upon one's own understanding" than inquiring of the Spirit. I have been watching Christians and politics for over 40 years and world affairs are getting worse not better. Coincidentally, that is what the book of Revelation reveals too. The world gets worse but the Church should be shining brighter (I am not speaking about the political church).

I don't even see a thought process in the NT about leaving a country and moving to another one to set up a Christian kingdom on earth. If any church should have had this conversation it surely would have been the Early Church.

 2016/2/7 15:16





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