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dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1675
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Juilus, yes. I stated that incorrectly. No argument.


_________________
Tim

 2016/2/1 21:12Profile
Yeshuasboy
Member



Joined: 2006/6/10
Posts: 668
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada

 Re: A question related to God's sovereignty

You ask, you receive, dear brother and sister.
Prepare to be blessed. May the Lord grant you the grace to receive it. Here's an audio on this amazing, yet very simple subject that a child of the true faith can comprehend. Most of it is all Scripture and absolutely no twisting of doctrine via carnal reasoning. All glory to God :) https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=19110


_________________
Richie

 2016/2/1 22:11Profile









 Re: A question related to God's sovereignty

Quote:
by makrothumia on 2016/2/1 10:32:34

Now for the question - If God always does what pleases Him, WHY WOULD HE BE PLEASED TO CREATE VESSELS UNTO WRATH when He states that He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked? Put another way, why would God sovereignly choose to create a vessel solely for the purpose to be destroyed when He has clearly stated it does not please Him to destroy the wicked?"



Where does it say HE WAS PLEASED TO CREATE VESSELS UNTO WRATH?

We are all all "vessels of wrath" until the light of Christ shined upon us.



 2016/2/1 23:26
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re: A question related to God's sovereignty

Perhaps one explanation is that it was for His glory in the sense that He gets to reveal the fullness of who He is; His eternal attributes of mercy and wrath forever being displayed by demonstration upon said vessels.

To explain the reasoning/logic behind this thesis:

1) God created all things for His ultimate glory and worship

2) Worship requires that the worshipper innately desire to know their object of worship (ex: man who idolizes ferraris will innately desire to know everything there is to know about ferraris)

3) To know God one must know His attributes

4) God's attributes are measureless (love, justice, mercy, wrath, kindness, grace, etc)

4) These attributes cannot be known by creation unless they are demonstrated by the Creator to creation (ex. one cannot look at a stationary object and know what love, justice, mercy, etc. are, they have to be demonstrated)

5) God uses vessels of wrath to display His measureless justice and wrath and anger whereas the objects of mercy are used to display His measureless love, kindness, grace, mercy

6) Hell just as much as heaven are for the revealing of God's measureless attributes for all of eternity to creation that He may be fully known and worshipped for who He is

Just my 2 cents (and maybe a nickel, haha)


_________________
Will

 2016/2/2 0:04Profile









 Re:

The Lord gets to reveal the fullness of who He is through His Church.

To know God, one must know His heart (not about head knowledge).


John 3:19-20

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Those who come to the light become vessels of mercy.

Those who don't are vessels of wrath.

A vessel contains something: The Spirit of God or THE SPIRIT that works in the sons of disobedience, WHO is the Prince of the power of the air.

There is a reason that God uses the word vessel in the scriptures. He is trying to teach the church something; that if you don't have the nature of Christ you have the nature of Satan. WE ARE ALL VESSELS OF WRATH BEFORE WE CAME TO FAITH AND WE STILL HAVE TO ENDURE TILL THE END.

Ephesians 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to THE PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR, THE SPIRIT THAT NOW WORKED IN THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; AND WERE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others.

 2016/2/2 2:48
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091


 Re: A question related to God's sovereignty


Mak,

My offering in regard to your post:

https://youtu.be/tyWbewGFudQ

 2016/2/2 14:34Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 700
Texas

 Re:

Thank you to those who have responded. My wife and I have been moving into a home and I have not had a lot of time to be at a computer.

I am grateful for brothers who can explain their understanding from a settled position, especially those who in recognition of the valid questions others have, seek to address those concerns in a spirit of brotherhood.

Mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2016/2/2 15:17Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 700
Texas

 Re:

Hi Julius,

Perhaps my logic is faulty, but I reasoned that if God is the one "having prepared vessels unto destruction", that He had a purpose for doing so.

We know He does all things for His own good purposes, so my question is searching for the why He purposed to do what He has expressed He has no pleasure in doing?

My choice of words may have been inadequate, but I was seeking to express the idea some assert that God made vessels He never purposed to have mercy upon. I assume that those who express that God did not ordain all unto mercy have sincerely considered why He did not and have pondered His reasons for having readied vessels unto destruction given that He takes no pleasure in that destruction.

I hope that helps, but please bear with me if it does not and help me clarify my own thoughts.

Mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2016/2/2 15:33Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1675
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Mak,

I don't speak for Julius and hope it is okay for me to respond. I think it is a faulty premise that individuals are "vessels unto destruction" if Romans 9 is the basis for using the phrase. These vessels are nations. Specifically, Paul describes God's sovereign right to choose whom (as a people, not individually) in the world He will to reveal His plan for the ages. It has nothing to do with what individuals are saved or not, nor who will be and who won't be saved.

From this perspective, then, you don't arrive at any dilemma. To the extent anyone applies Romans 9 as pertaining to God's choice to save some and His choice of others to be condemned, they are reading fiercely into the text. It is so beside the point Paul makes in the whole passage.


_________________
Tim

 2016/2/2 16:17Profile









 Re:

Mak, appreciate your good responses. I think you are getting this from Romans 9:21.

Quote:
"having prepared vessels unto destruction"



Maybe you are getting it from here in a different version:
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (ἀτιμία-atimia---indignity, (objectively) disgrace: - dishonour, reproach, shame, vile.)
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

This does not mean He was "pleased to create vessels for the purpose of destruction." When you look at the whole of Scripture, this thinking seems out of place. Why the longsuffering, then if He foreknew and foredestined them as "vessels unto wrath?" No, they were "fitted" for destruction because of their rebellious, stiffnecked heart, unwilling to repent. In other words, they "fitted" themselves for destruction. It was their choice, not God's. Israel was indeed looked upon by the rest of the world as vile, shameful and a disgrace (9:21). There is certainly no honor in those things (no honor among men). They were a reproach among men. God knew when He selected a people (created for dishonor, not destruction), that they would be hated by Satan (and thus by all men), since they were His people. Satan of course, hates God and anything that is of God (namely, His people).

And, you could say Jesus Christ, Himself was also a "vessel unto dishonor", because he suffered the indignation and reproach of all. He bore our shame and disgrace as He suffered for all of our vile sins and experienced the wrath of God. This was Jesus Christ identifying with His people, Israel, just as He identifies with His people, the Church today, in their suffering, disgrace, shame, and reproach. This is how He makes one vessel unto honor or dishonor. It is by His calling. He called Israel to be His people, honored by God, but dishonored by men. Likewise, He called His Son Jesus, a vessel to dishonor (by men) but great honor by Himself.

I read in many places in the OT where God pleads with much longing and sorrow over Israel which coincides perfectly with His heart that He desires for no man to perish. These many verses of His heart breaking for Israel, does not sound like a God who is "preparing vessels unto destruction".

I am very close in my understanding with dolfan. I don't have this dilemma because I don't believe that God actually "prepared vessels unto destruction". However, as dolfan said, a nation, he chose, not only for honor, but also for dishonor, if you can receive that? It is all about His "calling" not about His "creating".

Vessels that do come under His wrath are only fit for destruction and thus have come under His wrath, justifiably and yet we all deserve His wrath since we are all by nature, children of wrath. Everyone! God does not pick "winners and losers". Man is only made safe, by faith, in the Holy One of Israel.

If salvation was "all of God and none of man" why does God here beseech men to be reconciled? For reconciliation to occur, both of the conflicting parties need to consent. God is willing to be reconciled to all sinners, but not all sinners are willing to be reconciled to God. All are not saved, not because of God's election, but because of man's freedom of choice. Salvation requires the choice of man to repent of sin and believe the Gospel.

Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2Co 6:8 BY HONOUR AND DISHONOUR, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

 2016/2/2 18:30





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