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makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 692
Texas

 A question related to God's sovereignty

Here is a question regarding God's sovereignty? We understand that God's sovereignty allows Him the divine right to do whatever is pleasing to Him. We do not fear this authoritative prerogative because by faith we hold that God's perfect will originates from within His perfect being.
If it pleases Him to make some vessels unto wrath and other vessels unto mercy, we may wrestle trying to comprehend this truth; however, we can not accuse Him of wrong doing and remain consistent with our confession that God is light and there is no darkness in Him at all.
God will do whatever He pleases and all of His desires are perfectly righteous - there is no contradiction.
Now for the question - If God always does what pleases Him, why would He be pleased to create vessels unto wrath when He states that He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked? Put another way, why would God sovereignly choose to create a vessel solely for the purpose to be destroyed when He has clearly stated it does not please Him to destroy the wicked?
I am certain that I am not the first person to ask this question, so if someone reading this can point me to an article or book that addresses this, I would be grateful.

Mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2016/2/1 10:32Profile
TMK
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 Re: A question related to God's sovereignty

Are we allowed to argue that your observation stems from a false premise(that God predestines individual persons to wrath)?

If so, that is my argument.

The other option is monstrous, no matter how one tries to spin it.


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Todd

 2016/2/1 11:56Profile









 Re: A question related to God's sovereignty

a slow prayerful reading (maybe twice, should the Spirit lead you) through the Book of Job.

 2016/2/1 12:32
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re: A question related to God's sovereignty


The bible teaches that man was created by God with the purpose of exercising a free will to make choices to obey God or disobey. God did not create mankind to be robots that are controlled against their will.

Blessings...rbanks

 2016/2/1 12:36Profile
TMK
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 Re:

Hey Neil-

I just happened to listen to the book of Job last week- it is one of my favorites.

I don't get any contrary idea from Job.

Sure, God can do what He wants. The question is, what does He do?


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Todd

 2016/2/1 12:37Profile
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 Re: A question related to God's sovereignty

Brother Alan,

I can only speak from the understanding I've been given by the Lord,... Having said that I inquired at great length regarding a similar question of where the sovereignty of God ends and the free will of man begins? Which I am aware many professing Faith in Christ do not even confess is an actual agent. Nonetheless this seemed to me to be the crux of the matter of so much division in the church that I was previously unaware of. I believe the Lord Himself gave me the desire to seek Him out on this subject so that He may reveal the truth of His spirit on this most divisive subject. It was however up to me to take up the task,that he had given me the desire for, and if I had not He would simply give it to another and most likely has/did, not because of any lack of desire for the truth on my part so much as for the integrity of His plan and the purposes therein.

So perhaps because I am simple minded He gave it (after years of prep) to me in a very elementary context.....

You can't have a kingdom without a king and if there is a king then his word is law/sovereign within the borders of his kingdom, however his sovereignty does not extend beyond the borders of his kingdom. (Which brought to mind a parallel with Jesus and Pontius Pilate).
He then continued to give me an analogous context and asked me questions regarding it as follows;
If you,as a loving and responsible father, took your son Asa to a place that he deemed unclean, seedy, and dangerous, would he not question it at first but then be comforted by your calm and loving disposition giving you the benefit of the doubt as to why you lead him there? I said yes

He the asked now, since you lead him there (to a place outside his ability to understand) are you as his father sovereignly responsible for his provision? his protection? his security while there? Again I answered yes and psalm 23 came to mind

He then asked this,.... Now what if this same son went to this same place but without your directing him to go or accompanying him- does he have any legitimate expectation of your provision? your protection? your security? I answered, no...
But what if this son went to this place without your leading and found himself in trouble and cried out for help, would you rescue him? I said yes a thousand times and as quickly the last as the first. To which He said, so it is with you. My sovereignty extends only to those who choose to submit themselves to it even when it doesn't make sense to them because they love me and trust that I love them and desire the best for them.

This may mean nothing to you dear brother but for me it was exactly what I needed to hear, that tho at times the circumstances of life seem dire, IF we are walking in obedience to God then we have nothing to worry about and are His sheep, however if we go a out doing what is right in our own eyes then we have not a king and have become a law unto ourselves and are goats/lawless....

I've found over the years a great number of people who have on the "soldiers uniform" but aren't "under orders" of their CO, but are in fact rouge agents/wolves in sheep clothing if you will and it is a most grevious thing and does great damage to the cause of Christ.
2 Timothy 2:3-5 comes to mind....

Hope this helps,... as for articles and commentaries, I've read and studied many but only my King could give me the words of life and tho they be hard, where else can I go?


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Fletcher

 2016/2/1 12:48Profile
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 Re:

Hi Fletcher-

But what if God predestined that your son go to the seedy part of town? And also that he not cry out for help?


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Todd

 2016/2/1 12:56Profile
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 Re:

Brother Todd,
Ha! Well that wouldn't be a word of life now would it?
And the God of salvation that saves me everyday, doesn't lead us to death but we can choose it in spite of His best efforts to call us to repentance.


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Fletcher

 2016/2/1 13:11Profile
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 Re:

Going farther I confess I don't kno the "god" that does that. The God I know and serve is abounding in mercy, kindness, is forgiving and justifies the sinner while yet an enemy, so the one you describe is foreign to me.

The garden of Gethsemane is a (for me) very clear example of Gods sovereignty at work:)


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Fletcher

 2016/2/1 13:19Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 801


 Re:

God is sovereign. There's no question about it. The most fortunate thing I have found about this subject is that my ideas about the sovereignty of God in no way affect His actual sovereignty. Good thing the Lord is not waiting upon us to define what Biblical predestination is in order to be doing it.

So regardless of what conclusion we come to today or any other day, God still reigns and His will will be accomplished according to His plan and purpose.


Here is what I notice about people: men and women love the sovereignty of God when it benefits them (blessings, help in situations, etc). They may tend to hate it when it seems to harm them (trials, death, sickness, etc). You can't do a study on the sovereignty of God and still be grappling with selfish ambitions and expect to come to a doctrinally sound conclusion. That was not pointed at anyone, just something I know is true about myself. When God offends me, it is because I am being dumb.

 2016/2/1 13:20Profile





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