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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : A Prophetic Word from Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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by staff on 2016/1/16 22:23:37

All correct but I’m asking a different question. My Question is Why should it be Elijah to come in the first place or what is it that Elijah is able to do that Moses or Aaron or Jeremiah are not?

by staff on 2016/1/16 19:21:42
Do you accept that John and Elijah had these things in common as well?
Here are some of the other Common things:

A connection to something that lasted 3 1/2 years
Both wore Hairy garments
Both poured water over 12 stones(twelve Apostles)
Both poured water over the Sacrifice
Both caused by fire to fall from Heaven
Both came up against a wicked Queen
Both came up against a wicked king
Both were fed not by the normal way
Both had all go out to see them
Both ministered in the wilderness
Both ministered at the same place at the Jordon River

You seemed to answer your own question and I want you to know that I do agree with these similarities and that is obviously why Elijah is a type of John (foreshadowing of a future person) and John is the anti-type of Elijah (someone foreshadowed by an earlier symbol or in this case, person).

So, I would like you to continue because I want to see where you are headed.

Let me just say in advance that it is important to keep in mind that the prophets "prophesied until John," who was the end of the line of the old covenant prophets. John was the anti-type of Elijah as I have already mentioned in agreement with you (Mal. 4:5; cf. Lk 16:16). Fulfillment of the ENTIRE LINE OF OLD COVENANT PROPHECY HAS COME TO FRUITION IN JESUS CHRIST. Jesus indicates that all who are in His kingdom are greater than John, for they have more privilege, more blessing, and more hope than John ever realized. All who were in the old covenant prophetic age "did not receive what was promised" (Heb. 11: ; Lk. 10:23,24). Christians have all of God's blessings and promises in Jesus Christ (II Cor. 1:20; Eph. 1:3).

 2016/1/16 23:23

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2081


Hi Julius
I will just do the last part in a bit and I will qoute all the scriptures as it is the controversial section.It is also the part where if someone doesnt agree with me I can accept more readily as it is in the future and their are many different opinions on end times theology by many true Christians.Ultimately the proof is in the eating,If something I say begins to unfold then I am correct and If it doesnt then I am False and not correct.
Going back to the original objection it is not that talking about a forth coming persecution is wrong or forth coming marthrdom is wrong but that preaching them in isolation I feel is wrong.Also we have to distinguish between a forth coming persecution and an end times persecution.Is the persecution people of SI talking about an End times thing or not.If it is not End Times then they can preach in Isolation and temper it with the normal gospel(for the want of a better term).If it is End Times then that becomes a different ball game,
Yours Staff

 2016/1/17 13:09Profile



Thank you for your post. Whether we agree or disagree, we are still brothers and we most certainly agree on the very most important things. It is really nice to be able to challenge one another in the Word without being hateful and I promise I would never engage in such behavior. I appreciate the fact that you are thinking about and considering many things. Many important things, as well do I. You are right in that some things that are talked about refer to the future, which no one really knows for sure and because of this we should extend grace to one another and not shut down a conversation. And we should rest assured that in Christ Jesus, if it turns out we are wrong about something, we won't be stoned. With that said, I look forward to your next post.

 2016/1/17 13:27

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2081


Hi Julius
Love you brother and where I offended I apologize and I know your grace will be extended which can only happen with Christ followers.Thank you Hugh

 2016/1/17 20:03Profile


Thanks staff, but I was not offended in the least. I love digging into the Word of God and your topic is very interesting. Love you and your heart for the truth, bro.

 2016/1/17 21:58

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2081


Hi Julius
Off line for the last couple of days sorry,

Well the question will Elijah or "The Spirit Of Elijah" come again in the future near or far?

First look at these couple of issues

John The Baptist didnt understand that Jesus had to come twice not once.
The first time he came to be the sacrifice and the second time to be the King.
When John didnt see the Kingly things happen like Israel been freed from Roman oppression he got confused and sent his diciples to Jesus to ask
Are you the messiah or should we look for another?

The Prophesy in Malachi says before the great and terrible day of the Lord.
We know that when Jesus walked the Earth that day can be considered the day of the Lord
But also we know that the Day of The Lord is also in the future when he finally comes.

Jesus said of John after he was killed that he” will restore “ future tense hinting at a future Elijah.

10 The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
11 Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.
12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

If that was all said in the Bible about Elijah coming again I would just leave it at that and wondered or not even noticed and not make anything about it.

Except that we have the account of the Witnesses in Revelation which is clearly linked to Elijah.
We have the 3 ½ years of Ministry like Elijah and Jesus (beginning from the baptism of John)
Once the Bible mentions the terms 1260 days, 42months,times time and half a time or 3 ½ years we are talking about the same time of the end and is linked to Elijah.
We have Repentance Like Elijah and John The Baptist(they were clothed in Sackcloth)
Lets look at the power they have.
Fire comes out of their mouths,we know that this isnt a literal fire(as fire has never physically came out of a mans mouth) It is talking about fire in the sense of the word of God.
This is how their enemies must die,this is probably not a literal death but a death to all their arguments(like some of the posters earlier pointed out,it is not physical violence)
They can shut the sky up so it will not rain during the time of their Prophesy, a clear reference to one man Elijah .The time of their prophesy is 3 ½ years.
They can turn the waters into Blood,again this is something Elijah did after Mt Carmel.
Take the prophets of Baal and bring them to the River Kishon where they were killed and the river was red with their blood.This river flows directly into the med sea so not a trace of their blood was left. Again I believe this is not literal killing but death to false religion.They have the ability to judge false religion.
They have power to bring plagues but the definition can just as well be rendered afflictions.

Now a word about The Term “a voice crying in the wilderness”
Their is a difference between what the world thinks of that term and what the bible is on about.
The world uses that to describe someone who warns about something and is not listened too but in hindsight is correct.Ultimately it is describing someone who is proven correct but is unsuccessful.
The Bible however has a different view,All went out and came under Elijah,All came out and came under John and All will have to listen to the two witnesses whether they like it or not.Its a ministry of total success,acomplishing everthing it went out to do.

Who do the Witnesses minister too?
Well firstly they are Christian,I would say everyone would agree on that.That means that they could minister anywhere as everyone needs to hear the gospel.
However their are clear temple related scriptures so their is Israel involvement and they do die in Jerusalem.
Their ministry I would say is world wide because the message they have tormented the "dwellers" of the Earth and the celebration is world wide not just the middle east.
As we see that Elijah is involved with the Witnesses then the message that tormented the dwellers is clear.Repent repent his winnowing fork is in his hand and the day of the Lord is upon us.A frightening message that brought the whole of Jerusalem and surrounds out miles in the wildereness at the time of Christs death and ressurection.
The dwellers of the earth are delighted when the the witnesses are killed and no day of the lord so they celebrate.
The message of the "winnowing fork" and Christ is coming back is a message for the whole world as Christ is coming for the whole world not just Israel and the day of the lord effects the whole world as well.
They will also witness to the Antichrist directly as both Elijah and John witnessed directly to Antichrist figures in Ahab and Herod.I also think their powers will help them put the Church back into one denomination(Christian) as all will have to leave their church to symbolically go out to the wilderness to hear them speak.

Jesus said of John that he was the “friend of the bridegroom” and the "two witnesses"are symbolic of the two witnesses ivolved in the Jewish wedding ceremony that sign off on the wedding of Jewish couple.

Who are they?
Some say Elijah and Enoch,some say Elijah and Moses,most commentators believe its Elijah in some form and one other.My belief understanding is that both witnesses come in the "Spirit of Elijah" I think the characteristics of one will be like John the Baptist/Elijah and the characteristcs will be like Elisha.
I base that on the typology of Elisha and also that both men walked together.
A most interesting scripture in this regard is the account of Elisha's encounter with kids that he cursed when they shouted go up you baldhead.Its a strange story unless you look at the typology.
What were the kids saying?Go up you baldhead.
They were saying go up to heaven like Elijah did,you have no power to do that (lack of hair on the head was symbolic of no power like Samuel when the cut his hair)
What was Elishas response?He brought Judgement on 42 by two hairy bears.The two bears -two witnesses the 42kids the 42 months.What he was saying oh yes I do have the power just wait and see type of thing.It also carefully recorded that Elisha died and the king also says of Elisha out of season the "Chariots of Israel and its Horsemen" indicating Elishas future role in going up miracously to heaven.

So I see the Elijah in the future rapping up the Church,Backing Israel,telling the world including Israel Jesus is coming,prophesying about the terror to come and going up to heaven by miracle.
I think the church will have its 7 portions of Plenty before the 7 portions of empty,Their will be enough harvest miracles persecution and Martyrdom to go around but Good with the tough,not just the tough
That was hard to put together,
Yours Staff

 2016/1/21 21:28Profile

Joined: 2012/9/25
Posts: 823

 Re: A Prophetic Word from Dietrich Bonhoeffer

AMEN and Amen.. We will be known by our fruits not our gifts. (::
In Christ
Sister Frannie EAGLEFLYING..


 2016/1/21 21:43Profile


You know, staff, we are just going to have to see what happens. There are so many interpretations regarding end time events. I have read most of the interpretations in my walk with the Lord and this one resonates with my spirit mostly because the scriptures are cross-referenced and provide much explanation. The other ones really never did witness to me like this one does.

The view of Revelation that I am speaking of and makes the most spiritual sense to me is found here. Of course, I recommend that you read the whole thing.

A Commentary on the Revelation of John

Here is an excerpt for you from Chapter 11 and the "Two Witnesses" are mentioned.

Commentary on Revelation 11:3 through 11:19.

During this divinely limited period of time when the church will be persecuted, God will grant the authority of Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:18) to His “two witnesses, who will prophesy, though clothed in sackcloth” (11:3). God’s has always demanded that testimony be validated by “two witnesses” (Deut. 17:6; 19:15; Numb. 35:30; Matt. 18:16; John 8:17; II Cor. 13:1; Heb. 10:28). Jesus sent out the seventy witnesses “two by two” (Luke 10:1-24). All Christians in the church of Jesus Christ are called to be His witnesses (Acts 1:8), so the “two witnesses” are best understood to be the necessary complement of Christian witnesses who are willing to invest their lives for Jesus Christ, even unto martyrdom, for the Greek word translated “witness” is martur. Jesus identified Himself as the “faithful witness” (1:5). John considered himself a “witness” (1:2). All Christians comprise the necessary “two witnesses.” Speculations have run rampant as interpreters have attempted to identify the “two witnesses” as Moses and Elijah, Peter and Paul, James and John, Luther and Calvin, or as non-personal entities such as Old Testament and New Testament, or as law and gospel. Such specific identifications are trivial diversions which do not serve to encourage all Christians to be witnesses who proclaim Jesus Christ, even in the context of humiliation and hardship (illustrated by the garb of “sackcloth”) unto death until Christ returns.

The “two witnesses” are further identified as “the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth” (11:4). The two olive trees may represent the oil of the Holy Spirit which is necessary for the light to be expressed in the lampstands, which were earlier identified as churches (1:20). Christians are called to be “the light of the world” (Matt. 5:14), but can be such witnesses only by the power of the Holy Spirit. “Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,” says the Lord of hosts (Zech. 4:6) in the Old Testament passage which employs the same imagery of olive trees and lampstands (Zech. 4:2-14). There the two olive trees and lampstands seem to be representative of Zerubbabel, the king, and Joshua, the priest. All Christians are anointed to represent God as kings and priests (I Peter 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10), which serves to verify the “two witnesses” as all Christians.

As Christian witnesses are empowered by the Holy Spirit, the fire of divine judgmental action in Jesus Christ proceeds from their mouths. God told Jeremiah that He was making His words in his mouth to be fire in order to consume the religionists (Jere. 5:14). The Christian witnesses have supernatural power to “shut up the sky” (11:6) like Elijah (I Kings 17,18) and to bring forth plagues (11:6) like Moses (Exod. 7-12), for Jesus promised that “greater works than I have done, you shall do” (John 14:12). God’s powerful works through Christians are unlimited as we remain available to His supernatural ability.

11:4-6 When the witnesses “have finished their testimony” (11:7) and the delay is over (10:6), the beast of religion “that comes out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them” (11:7). The physical lives of many of God’s Christian witnesses will be given up in martyrdom, “faithful unto death” (2:10). The corpses of Christians will be strewn throughout the streets of the “great city” (11:8) of religion, later to be identified as Babylon (14:8; 16:19; 18:10), which is historically linked to the religious efforts at Babel (Gen. 11:9). That this is not a literal city on earth is evident from the words of John which explain that this city is also “mystically” or “spiritually” called Sodom and Egypt and Jerusalem (11:8). Sodom is the symbol of God’s judgment on rebellious perversity (Gen. 19:23; Lk. 10:12; 17:29). Egypt represents the captivity from which God delivered His people (Jude 1:5). The earthly city of Jerusalem “where the Lord was crucified” (11:8) stands for the center of enslaving Jewish religion (Gal. 4:25) and the persecution of God’s Christian people (Luke 13:33-35). This religious community of Babylon, a.k.a. Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem, is comprised of “peoples and tribes and tongues and nations” (11:9) who will observe the corpses of the martyred Christians for a divinely limited time represented by the period of “three and a half days.” The “earth-dwelling” religionists (3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10) gloat over the indignity of disallowing the bodies to be buried (11:9), rejoicing with glee and merriment over the death of the Christian witnesses which they perceive to have tormented them (11:10), and over which they now think they have been victorious. Little do they realize what God is yet to do to express the victory that has been accomplished in Christ Jesus, the victory over all religion!

11:7-10 After the limited time of indignity, pictured as “three and a half days,” the Christians are resurrected. The “breath of life from God comes into them” similar to the imagery employed in Ezekiel’s vision of life restored in the valley of dry bones (Ezek. 37:10). “A loud voice” of divine origin “from heaven” invites the resurrected Christians to, “Come up here” (11:12); to leave the ignominy of the religious city and dwell forevermore in the “heavenly Jerusalem” (Heb. 12:22) which is “above” (Gal. 4:26), the “new Jerusalem” (Rev. 3:12; 21:2,10). They are translated into the heavenly realm via the “cloud” (11:12) of God’s presence (Matt. 17:5; Acts 1:9). This is no “secret rapture,” as some suggest, for the religious “enemies beheld them” (11:11,12) and were fearful. The religious world is once again “shaken” by an earthquake-judgment of God with divinely limited effects which encompass only “a tenth of the city” and the death of “seven thousand people” (11:13). “The rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven” (11:13). Do they really repent, or are they just responding in order to attempt to save their own skins? Sometimes the similar phraseology of the Revelation seems to indicate genuine repentance (14:7; 15:4; 16:9), but other scenarios cause us to question whether they will repent (6:15-17; 9:20,21; 13:3,4). Finally we come to the seventh trumpet sounded by the seventh angel (11:15). It reveals loud voices from heaven declaring, “The kingdom of the world has become that of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever” (11:15). When the “god of this world” (II Cor. 4:4) is totally overcome and the reign of religion is terminated, then in “the new heaven and the 11:11-15 new earth” (Isa. 65:17; II Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1)

Christians will experience the unhindered reign of Christ as “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” (17:14; 19:16) for eternity. Based on His victory at the cross and resurrection Jesus reigns already in the life of a Christian (Rom. 5:17,21), for we “have been transferred into the kingdom of Christ” (Col. 1:13), but the Lord Jesus Christ will reign in unhindered supremacy forever and ever in the heavenly realm. Along with the twenty-four elders we will worship the Almighty God and the Son, Jesus Christ (11:17). God’s bondservants, the prophets, along with the saints and all those who fear the name of Jehovah will receive their eternal reward (11:18). On the other hand, the final and complete judgment of God will come upon the religionists and those who do not receive Christ as their eternal life. The just wrath of God will be poured out, and the nations without God will be enraged as they face judgment (11:18). God will “destroy those who destroy the earth.” All of those identified with the “destroyer,” the devil, as all men are who are not identified with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:2), and who by their religious endeavors have been destructive to mankind and the earth that God created as the dwelling place of man will be finally destroyed. They will face “eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord” (II Thess. 1:9).

The final image in this vision reveals “the ark of His covenant appearing in the heavenly temple” (11:19). This would appear to represent the unhindered access that Christians have to all the new covenant blessings of God in Jesus Christ, “every spiritual blessing in heavenly places” (Eph. 1:3) including the “law of God written on our hearts” (Heb. 8:10; 10:16). 11:17-19 The opposite of His blessings are the cursings of His judgment, and these, too, are illustrated by lightning, thunder, earthquake and hailstorm which are brought to bear upon those who refuse to receive Jesus Christ. What is the ever-applicable message that the risen Lord Jesus has for Christians in every age within this panoramic vision of the trumpets? It might be that the prayers of Christians are indeed efficacious in calling for the release of the fires of God’s judgment to vindicate His righteousness and the victory of Jesus Christ. God’s providential judgments will most certainly be enacted against religion throughout the interim between Christ’s advents, and religion is essentially impotent to counteract that which God does. The pre-set limitations of God’s mercy will eventually come to an end. The sufferings of the saints will not last forever. In the meantime, God gives every opportunity for those involved in religion to repent and to rely solely on the dynamic of the life of Jesus Christ. “Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:5).

 2016/1/22 15:22

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