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 Re: To the forum.......

Actually I am very curious. So I pose this question respectfully to my brothers and sisters who hold to a preterist position on the forum. If the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in a historical way in 70 AD. Then how do you explain the present reality of persecution of our brothers and sisters.

I ask this question in light of what Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 24:9....... They will deliver you to tribulation and will kill you and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Soooooo....... if this was fulfilled in 70 AD....... why do we still have persecution of brethren in 2015???

Blaine

 2015/12/30 9:19
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1651
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Blaine, I am with you. I am fully on board with not being preterist. :) I am not. I remain in that mindset and understanding of prophecy yet to be fulfilled. My comments about Isaiah 17:1-3 were not intended to argue a broader point about interpretive views. I was just asking how anyone can view as "partial fulfillment" a once, past "partial destruction" of a place that obviously has not been destroyed ever and has always remained there.

I don't see how anyone can read Isaiah 17:1-3 as something capable of partial then complete fulfillment unless in between the "partial destruction" stays destroyed. Damascus is patently not that. It was taken over, partly destroyed, devastated and has never ruled anything again except as capital of Syria. I submit that the Hebrew words the prophet used in Isaiah 17:1-3 about Damascus naturally, easily encompass what already happened to Damascus all those centuries ago. I submit that I don't know for sure if the passage refers to those events or to something that remains unfulfilled yet. I do submit that IF the passage WAS fulfilled, it was not partial, but complete, and also that IF it WAS fulfilled then it has no bearing on the integrity of a futurist view of prophecy. That view stands or falls without regard to Isaiah 17.


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Tim

 2015/12/30 10:15Profile









 Re:

Bearmaster,

1/3 of the NT speaks about persecution and tribulation. It is part of the calling of living godly in this world. It's not just about one chapter in Matthew or Luke.

 2015/12/30 10:29
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5641
NC, USA

 Re:

But Blaine- all the disciples WERE persecuted and killed except arguably John.

You don't need the Olivet Discourse for source material regarding persecution of true believers. You can find that all over the place in scripture.

At best I have a partial preterist view of the OD. I certainly do not hold to a full preterist position.

But the fact of the matter is is that Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem which happened in the same generation as those who he was speaking to. It was the greatest tribulation the world had seen to that point. There were signs in the heavens (read Josephus's account) and it was the end of the temple system. God was judging an unbelieving Jewish people.

What makes the OD somewhat confusing is that Jesus uses apocalyptic language like other prophets before him (Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, eg).


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Todd

 2015/12/30 10:30Profile









 Re:

Brothers thank you kindly for responding to my question. I will take time to digest the answers you gave.

Youhan posted something about rabbinic interpretation of prophecies. Where the rabbis would look at prophecies as having multiple fulfillments culminating in one ultimate fulfillment. Matthew was written with the intention of trying to convince Jews that Jesus was their long awaited Messiah. Thus it would make sense to view Matthew 24 as being fulfilled to some degree in 70 AD. But also to see its ultimate fulfillment to be culminated when Jesus returns.

Just my thoughts.

Blaine

 2015/12/30 11:05









 Re:

Blaine,

Let me come at it this way. Since there seems to be a prophecy for just about everything, where in the Scriptures does it prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

 2015/12/30 11:27
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5641
NC, USA

 Re:

Bear- you very well could be right. I don't want to be dogmatic about it. I guess the trouble would be trying to figure out which prophecies have a dual fulfillment and which ones don't. And of course there would be differing opinions on that so we'd be back to square one.

Bottom line is that we need to follow hard after the Lord, regardless of what does or does not happen. That is what is expected. We follow hard after the Lord for HIS sake, not ours.


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Todd

 2015/12/30 11:29Profile









 Re:

That is a good final word, TMK.

Potentially, there could be no end yup assigning past prophecies to current and future events. No doubt why we will continue to have books published about the end times.

I'm sure in the middle ages when the Holy Roman empire, the Vatican was murdering millions, they thought they were in the last days. And thus it has been in most every generation.

We have to keep our eyes on Jesus.

 2015/12/30 11:35









 Re:

I agree my brothers. Good final word. Keep our eyes on Jesus :-) :-) :-)

 2015/12/30 14:31
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

bearmaster writes:

Quote:
Brother I could go all through the signs of Matthew 24 and ask how to preterist would explain their ongoing reality. But let me just take one of the signs. One that I am very well familiar with because of the nature of my prayer call.

Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 24:9.......They will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Now if I understand your position. You would say that this was fulfilled in 70 AD. If this was fulfilled in 70 AD then there should be no present persecution. Or is this the prettiest position?

Brother respectfully my question is why am I still moderating a call praying for the persecuted church three nights a week? Why am I still reading heart-wrenching reports of believers who are being martyred for Christ? Why is it documented that persecution of Christians is taking place in over 139 nations in this present day? Why were precious Saints slain for their faith in Jesus in Uganda, the Philippines, and Nigeria this past Christmas? Brother respectfully for that matter why is Greg still posting articles about the persecuted church in this forum?

Brother this question is asked respectfully and in a conciliatory manner or tone. I really would like to know how Oreterists such as yourself explain the reality of ongoing persecution in this present age. If you say the discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD. There is no sarcasm implied here. I just want to know how you view the reality of ongoing persecution of our brothers and sisters if you believe the discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Respectfully submitted by Blaine.



Very good question. I thought about starting a new thread on the Olivet Discourse based on that question but decided to just post my response here.

Respectfully, Bear's question reflects why I do not agree with the Partial Preterist interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, as it seeks to push the fulfillment of all the predictions there back to the first century, even the references there to Christ’s Second Coming. I also cannot agree with the Dispensational Futurist interpretation of it because it seeks to push it all into the future, even the clear references there to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in A.D. 70. And this is why I believe the Amillennial position gives a more biblically balanced and correct interpretation of the OD.

When it comes to interpreting Matthew 24, I believe the key is in considering the disciples questions. The disciples asked Jesus three specific questions, but they did not understand that those were three separate questions pertaining to three separate stages of history; they thought they all went together. The three questions were:

1. “When will these things be?” i.e. when will the destruction of the Temple take place?

2. “What will be the sign of your coming?" i.e. The Coming of the Messiah in power and great glory.

3. “What will be the sign of the end of the age?” i.e. the sign/s of the last days.

The disciples must have been shocked at our Lord’s prediction of the destruction of the Temple. They seem to have thought, “Surely, if the Temple is going to be destroyed it must be at the time of the Coming of the Messiah in power and great glory, at the time of the end of the age.”

Christ goes on to give them certain signs of those three different stages of history. And He does not give those signs in a strictly chronological order.

From verses 4-14 Christ gives them (and us) signs pertaining to the last days, which would answer their last question. What we need to understand at this point is that God’s Word calls “the last days” the time between Christ’s First and Second Coming. We see this clearly in many passages. These are some examples:

"Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."-1 Cor. 10:11
Real quick regarding this particular verse, notice how similar the wording is there to the disciples' question. The disciples asked what sign there would be for "the end of the age", and this verse says "the end of the ages" has come upon us.

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.”-Acts 2:17

“But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!”-2 Timothy 3:1-5

“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds”-Hebrews 1:1-2

“Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.”-James 5:3

“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.”-1 John 2:18

So what are the signs of the last days (again, the time between Christ’s First and Second Coming) according to Jesus in those verses? It’s these:

False Christ’s/false prophets/false teachers, wars and rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes in various places, persecution, betrayal, the love of many growing cold, and the preaching of the gospel throughout the earth.

Then from verses 15-26 our Lord answers their second question, which deals with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. He calls that destruction and desolation “the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet”. If you doubt this, consider this parallel passage in Luke 21:

“When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.”

Then from verses 27-31 Christ speaks of His Second Coming. And I’ll explain here why I disagree with the Preterist interpretation which says that this prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. In these verses we have the mentioning of clouds, the sound of a trumpet, the angels gathering the elect from the four winds and all the tribes of the earth mourning. Notice the similarities in these other passages of Scripture which clearly refer to the Second Coming of Christ:

“Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”-1 Cor. 15:51-52

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”-1 Thess. 4:16-18

“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.”-Rev. 1:7

In verses 32-35 Jesus gives the parable of the fig tree and tells them, “this generation will by no means pass away until all these things take place.” Now at this point Partial Preterists will say, “See, those previous verses could not possibly be referring to Christ’s Second Coming because that hasn’t taken place yet.” And Dispensational Futurists will use those same verses to make their case for pushing the fulfillment of all the OD predictions into the future.

However, there are two things to consider which allow for the Amillennial interpretation. First, the “all these things” could be referring to the signs of “the last days”. Also, the word “generation” is the Greek word ghenehah which could also be translated as “age”, so it could refer to the time or age between the two Comings of Christ. Peter uses that same word in Acts 2:40 where he exhorts his hearers, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

In verse 36 Christ says, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
Notice that our Lord does not say there, “But of those days”(plural) but rather, “But of THAT DAY”(singular). He is referring there to what the Bible calls “The Last Day”(Jn 6:39-40, 44; 54; Jn 11:24; Jn. 12:48), i.e. His Second Coming, which will be accompanied by the resurrection of the dead and the Day of Judgment.

In verses 37-44 our Lord compares the time of His Second Coming to the times of Noah right before the flood and warns us to be ready for His return at any moment.

Finally, in verses 45-51 Christ gives the parable of the faithful servant and the evil servant as another warning for us to be ready at all times for His return.


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Oracio

 2015/12/30 17:58Profile





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