Greetings in Jesus!

I had listened with much interest to this message given by Art Katz last night "And They Crucified Him."

I was very moved by this message, and as for those of you who may have heard this message and would have interest in discussing this message this most excellent brother had given. I would have interest in discussing this message with you. I believe it may could make for a profitable discussion.

It would seem that most preachers today when they talk about the cross, most aren't able to talk for it for more than 10 minutes.

Why is that?

I believe it's because "Christ crucified" and the perfection of the work of the cross (the perfection of the work of the new covenant atonement) has come to be largely obscured in churches today.

While having listened to this message of Art Katz's last night, I noticed he talked for more than an hour about it, in unfolding the perfection of the work of the cross, from the aspect of what the cross must do in us.

There are two main aspects of the work of the cross (the perfection of the work of the new covenant atonement).

Firstly, there is "What the cross does for us?

Secondly, "What the cross must do in us?"

Of course, we have need also to receive instruction, as for how to appropreiate what the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross had accomplished form both main aspects (1) "What the cross has done for us," and (2) "What the cross must do in us."

In this message given by Art Katz, I noticed the had focused on (2) "What the cross must do in us," and he unfolded how we may appropriate it.

As for those of you who have heard this message, that have interest in discussing this message, I would be delighted to discuss it with you.

There would seems to be very little teaching on the fullness of the perfection of the work of the new covenant atonement in the churches today.


In Christ,

Jake

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Jacob (Jake)

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Ron Halverson

Most Christians know that Christ died [i]for[/i] us.

What most of us still need to [i]know [/i] in real truth, in reality, in the depth of our being, is that Christ died [i]as[/i] us.



Brothers and sisters, could we not pray for ourselves and one another what Paul prayed for the Ephesian Christians (Ephes. 1: 17,18)

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto us the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of our understanding being enlightened … “

that we may know that Christ died [u][i]as[/i][/u] us?




“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also might walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:3.4).


That we might know
“what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead “ (Ephesians 1:19,20).

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Roger P.

Thank you, brothers Ron and Roger, for your posts.

By the way, I have since edited my post above to correct typos, and to try to make for a more easier read in my attempt to convey my thoughts, and Roger I agree with your prayer, brother. Yes, that is the way we are to pray for one another, and thank you so much for putting me in remembrance of that.

After now having had more time to chew on this message of Art Katz's: "And They Crucified Him," and to give some prayerful thought to this message. I believe the Lord had impressed this upon my heart and I will now share it with you.

My scriptural quotations will be from the New King James Version.

As I pondered on this message I believe the Lord had drawn my attention to the epistle of Paul's to the churches in Galatia of his day, and to this verse ...

Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)

Since this verse says that "those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh," we have a distinguishing mark of those who belong to Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 15:23, speaking of the order in which the dead are to be resurrected, Paul uses the same phrases ...

But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits [who has already been resurrected], after those who are Christ's at His coming. (emphasis added)

Christ is coming back as thief, in the sense that He will return at an unexpected moment; but there the likeness ends. He will take only those who belong to Him.

Now let's turn back to Galatians 5:24, the first verse I earlier quoted, and we discover the kind of persons for whom the Lord Jesus is coming: those who "have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

So we see its those belonging to Christ, these are the kind of persons for whom the Lord Jesus is coming: its not a denominational matter, Jesus is coming back not specifically for Protestants or Baptists or Pentecostals or whatever, but for people who fulfill a particular condition.

And what is that condition?

Jesus is coming back for those "who have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires."

By this I am wanting to bring more understanding as to this message that Art Katz has given or at least as much as God would enable me to do so. For I see that this is a very important message Art Katz had given in which reveals the fact, that it isn't optional that we embrace the cross, and to allow it to have the fullness of it's work that God has ordained to be done in us.

Please share your thoughts!

May we take our time with this and to go slowly, in sharing our thoughts concerning this subject matter. For if we do, I believe it may would make for a more profitable discussion if we do.

There is still yet more that I would like to say about this, but my interest isn't in dumping information, but in having a dialogue in which I believe is by far better to further our learning, and in hope that we may all may be able to learn from one another, and I am looking forward to learning somethings form you.


May the Lord be very gracious to you!

Jake

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Jacob (Jake)

Hi Yehuda,

Wonderful that you have come and grabbed hold of this message. Here is an older thread in regards to it along with an transcription of the audio:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=1082&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]And They Crucified Him by Art Katz[/url]

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Mike Balog

Crsschk wrote to me:

Wonderful that you have come and grabbed hold of this message.

Here is an older thread in regards to it along with a transcript of the audio.


My Response:

Yes, and I believe that He who is wonderful, may well have been behind it.

Kapish? (smiling)

"Kapish?" is Jewish, it's Yiddish for "Do you understand?" or "Do you know what I am saying?"

Thanks for this you shared, it's very helpful.


Be blessed, brother.

Jake

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Jacob (Jake)

Thanks, Mike, for pulling it up. I'm still "challenged". :-)


Since seqments of the message are numbered consecutively, it should be a handy tool for anyone to tell the others what is the part of the message to which he/she is referring.

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Roger P.

Dear brother Jake,

I follow your reasoning and thank you for it, because it brings us right back into the heart of Art’s message which you summarize so well when you summarize it with the few words,

“it isn't optional that we embrace the cross, and to allow it to have the fullness of it's work that God has ordained to be done in us”.

Let’s not kid ourselves. It isn’t optional.



Quote:
“May we take our time with this and to go slowly, in sharing our thoughts concerning this subject matter. For if we do, I believe it may would make for a more profitable discussion if we do.

”There is still yet more that I would like to say about this, but my interest isn't in dumping information, but in having a dialogue in which I believe is by far better to further our learning, and in hope that we may all may be able to learn from one another, and I am looking forward to learning somethings from you.”


Again, I agree with you on the importance of keeping focused, keeping it tight. I agree so much that I was in a sense reluctant to make my post about the need to know the fact that Christ died as us.

It was a departure from the message itself because Art did not specifically teach the need for us to recognize that Christ died as us.

I’m so glad I did not divert in a disruptive way.


Quote:
”There is still yet more that I would like to say about this…”


Please tell us what you understand to be [i]the meaning of[/i] “They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” (Galatians 5:24).

Thanks so much!


Roger

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Roger P.

Roger wrote:

Please tell us what you to be the meaning of "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24)

Thanks so much!


My Response:

Todah Achi (Hebrew for "Thank you, my brother").

You are too kind.

The Lord bless you!

I believe the Lord has strongly impressed the importance of this message Art Katz gave upon my heart, and I am going to listen to it again tonight.

And all that I am going to try to do using this message Art Katz gave as a foundation is to try build upon the truth of God's Word that he had brought forth in his message is all or as much as God would enable me to, and I am going to take this slowly, and to be in no hurry about with it.

As for as your mention you think you may had drifted off topic a bit by something you said in one of your earlier posts. Don't be overly concerned about that, it's normal for us at times to digress a bit.

I am now going to try to pick this back up from where I left off in my last post addressing this topic of discussion.

In our most excellent brother Paul's epistle to the churches in Galatia in Galatians Chapter 5 he gives us a list of the works of the flesh --- the way the fleshly nature expresses itself in our lives.

"The works of the flesh," Paul says, "are evident."

All too evident, I would say. However, not always evident to the one who practices them, but evident to everybody else. Do you know what I am saying?

These works are ....

adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentious, idolatry, soccery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, dunkenness, revelries and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21, NKJ)

We can search in vain for anything good in this list above.

Nothing good ever comes out of the flesh.

It is incapable of producing good.

It is clear that we cannot live according to the flesh and inherit the Kingdom of God. They are mutually exclusive.

I am wanting to cover this throughly before moving on with all this, but I want to keep my posts short and not a long read, and to encourage dialogue and questions some may have about what is now being covered, and for others to share their thoughts.

In my next post I am going to breifly cover four categories of the works of the flesh in which I believe has need to be discussed:

* Sexual Impurity

* The Occult

* Division

* Self-Indulgence

Only I share that because I want to keep your interest in this discussion. And even to perhaps, to slow some others down who may casually read here. Who maybe, might come to say to themselves: "What's up with this?" and may would come to have some interest in this discussion too, you see. (smiling)

And ultimately we are going to get around to dealing with this stuff, and I believe we may come to have even a new appreication of "Christ crucified" and the perfection of the work of cross.

In fact, for my part, I already have in having heard this message by Art Katz: "And they crucified Him," and after having believed that the Lord had impressed it upon my heart to start this discussion and to have begun to share with you.
I am coming to have a new appreciation of "Christ Crucified" and the perfection of the work of the cross.


Be blessed, brother.

Jake

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Jacob (Jake)

Greetings in Jesus!

Now that I have come to have a little more time to post. I am going to try to pick back up from the place I came to in my last post. if I can to take this on further.

I have discovered that there are four main categories of the works of the flesh, and they can be seen in Paul's list we had read in Scripture in my last post.

Firstly, sexual impurity.

Sexual impurity includes fornication or sexual immorality, uncleanness and licentiousness.

Fornication --- or sexual immorality --- covers every kind of sexual immorality; premarital sex (if you want to give it that fancy name); adultery (breaking of a marriage covenant); homosexuality; and every other type of perversion.

Churches or denominations ordain whom they will. But that does not change what the Bible says. Do you know what I am saying?

The Bible says: Those who practice sexual impurity are excluded from the kingdom of God, and that we saw in Scripture in my last post.


The second category of the works of the flesh is the Occult: idolatry and sorcery.

An alternative transalation for sorcery is witchcraft.

Initially, witchcraft, though a satanic activity, is a work of the flesh. Its objective is to manipulate and control.

Once the flesh comes into operation, however, the satanic moves in and takes over.

Of course, we know that we are all descendents of Adam, and have inherited the fallen nature. But for just a moment I would like for you to recall the first desire of Adam and Eve that led then into trouble.

What was it? It was to KNOW!

That was the first desire of Adam and Eve that led them into trouble! to KNOW!

And that is, a desire of the flesh.

Uncounted millions are captivated by the occult today, because they want to find out things God has not permitted them to know.

For example, going to a fortune teller what is that? Going to as fortune teller would be an act motivated by the fleshly desire to KNOW --- a work of the flesh.

The same applies to consulting the horoscope.

Sometimes people are inclined to plead ignorance as an excuse, saying, "I didn't know there was anything wrong with that."

But ignorance is no excuse.

In 1 Timothy 1:13-15 Paul acknowledges that he was the chief of sinners for things he did "ignorantly in unbelief."

The word translated "sorcery" is directly related to the Greek word for drugs --- the same word from which we get "pharmacy."

The cult of drugs is sorcery, and those who engage in it are outside the Kingdom of God.

And now for the third main category of the works of the flesh in which is longest part of Paul's list, I have drawn you attention to in Scripture in my last post, is very little attended to, centers around division.

Paul identifies "hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy."

Every broken personal relationship, everything that divides homes and families, and every kind of division in the Body of Christ, is the product of the flesh.

And the fourth and final catgory is Paul's list we read in Scripture in my last post above in the fourth and final category of the main works of the flesh is "drunkness, revelries and the like."

I understand this to refer to unrestrained indulgence of fleshly appetites and desires, especially in the area of food and drink.

In 1 Corinthians 9:27 (NJK) Paul describes the kind of discipine in this area that he imposed on himself ....

I discipine my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

If you and I decide to follow Paul's example, we invoke the help of the Holy Spirit, whom Paul describes is "a spirit of power, of love and self-discipline" (2 Timothy 1:7, NIV, emphasis added).

But if we continue to be undisciplined and self-indulgent, the Holy Spirit will not impose on us a discipline that is contrary to a lifestyle of our choice.

Someone had said, "I am my worst enemy?"

In saying that, they may had been more speaking of the enemy within.

What is the mark of carnaliy?

I am going to talk about it in my next post (the Lord willing).

Share your thoughts!


Grace be with you!

Jake

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Jacob (Jake)