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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1913


 Re:

Sree I don't think Paul says that the people spoken about called Jesus a brother ,,, but rather called them selves a brother in a Christian scence ,but like a said weather a Muslim calls and doesn't call him self a brother is irrelevant because in the letter Paul is dealing with a different situation then John ,,,that's why Paul talks about receiving ones back in to fellowship and forgiving them and not to count them as enemy's ,certaint ones ,,,but John ,,is down right ,don't even speak with them ,the don't have the son........

 2015/11/20 3:25Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1913


 Re:

No Blaine ,they are not ,,are you being funny .......

 2015/11/20 3:29Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1809


 Re:

Quote:

Muslim calls and doesn't call him self a brother is irrelevant because in the letter Paul is dealing with a different situation then John



I don't understand how it is irrelevant. In 1 Corth 5, Apostle Paul is clearly referring to the man living in Open adultery and was also part of the Church as a fellow brother. He is asking other believers not even to associate with such men. But outside the Church, in the world, do not distinguish men as sinners but associate with them.

Basically if you understood the spirit of that verse you will be clear. There is a spirit behind every verse. The spirit is, a fake brother in the Church living in sin can easily deceive us to live in Sin. But outside the Church, with plain sinners, we already know that they are wrong, hence we will not be deceived by them. For example no born again person will follow a worldly person as an example to live in sin. But when he sees a believer living carelessly in sin, he too gets that careless attitude of sin.


3 different reasons why your interpretation is incorrect:-

1. If 1 John 1:10 asks us not to associate with outsiders then it clearly contradicts the freedom given by Paul in 1 Corthin 5 to associate with worldly people.
2. 1 John 1:10 talks about those who do not acknowledge Jesus came in Flesh. This is different from whether they acknowledge Jesus as God or not. In my previous post I clearly explained you what it means to acknowledge Jesus coming in Flesh. So based on that your interpretation that this verse is applicable to Muslims and JW is incorrect.
3. Finally 1 John 1:10 is given for individual disciples not for a nation. So you cannot apply it for a nation like US and say that it should not invite Muslims. This is the greatest mistake that believers make due to the Sin of patriotism inside them. It is easy for a guy like me from a heathen nation to see this sin in others, but people from so called Christian nation cannot see their own sin.


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Sreeram

 2015/11/20 5:34Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1809


 Re:

Quote:

what is it that we aply those same verses to momans and jehova witness's ,when I read the Koran ,I see it teach that we as people of the book are brothers who received revalation from the same God ,they confess Jesus as a great prophet as we know he is , ,, we worship the same God ,.



I apologize for appearing harsh in my previous posts. I believe we can have a better healthier discussion.

As I said in my previous posts, the spirit behind 1 John 10 and 1 Cor 5 is to warn against deception from a fellow deceived brother.

The thing that clearly prevents me from applying 1 John 1:10 to Muslims and JW is, we will have very less chance to be deceived by those two. If a Christian is deceived by Muslim and converts to Islam or if he denies the deity of Jesus after being influenced by JW then there is something seriously wrong with his initial conversion. Though it has happened frequently in the past, I do not believe Apostle Paul or even John is concerned about such deception.

But Apostles are clearly concerned about the deceptions like legalism, casual attitude to sin, denying the way of cross etc that can enter the Church through fellow believers. Such sins come in unnoticed and are more dangerous.

Regarding Islam, I have debated with few Muslims, I do not think they believe we all worship the same God. They are totally against our belief. The Jesus they believe is not the same Jesus we believe. Even though Quran asks Muslims to refer to Bible to know more about Jesus, it is still not the same Jesus. The identity of Jesus given in Quran itself contradicts the Jesus of Bible. So no way that they can be called our brothers.

When we call someone brother, it is the greatest title we can give to them. Which means we are acknowledging that such a person is connected to us as a brother of Jesus. So it is not just a casual word brother. I do not call all Christians as brothers, even in SI forums, I carefully use this word. Not everyone is worthy to be called a fellow brother of Jesus.


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Sreeram

 2015/11/20 6:00Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1913


 Re:

Actually it's 2 John 10'...."

What I said it was erelevent, was only due to Paul dealing with brothers in Christ and mabey unconverted unrepentant professes ,but John in his seconded letter is deal with another class of people ,those who believe in and preach another Jesus ,two different context ,which are not relevant due to the differing treatment ,,,,one was to not asocate, but don't treat them like an enemy ,,,,but johns treatment was to not even to speak or to eat with them ,with no exhortation to restore them because these were Cleary a false cult who preached a false Christ ,who were gnostic ,, ,these were enemy's of the crossfire you will ,,,,,and I think the application is two different effects ......

I realise and made a point that Jesus not coming in the flesh was one of the signs of this new cult they were dealing with , and I never applied it with that sign in mind ,those I think you applied it to Catholics ,who neither deni that,,,,,,,,,,

That was one of the signs for that particular cult in that day and age ,

My main reason ,was that they preach another Jesus and deni the son of God and the fatherhood of God ..., John talks about that in his first letter,it was another sign .......

 2015/11/20 6:33Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1913


 Re:

I should have been clear ,my post doesn't have any thing to do with refuges entering America, ,wile I was read the thread ,I just said that I struggle trying to reconcile those verses with dealing with certaint cults ,,my comments are not in that context sorry to not clarify that .

 2015/11/20 6:37Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1913


 Re:

No you didn't appear harsh at ,sorry if I made it seem that way .

Well I do disagree that John and Paul are both talking about true Christians ,John makes it clears in his first letter where he gives the test to show is is of God and who is of the devil a real black and white contrasts in his theology .. Iv read first John hundreds of times and and convinced that he is showing who's true and false Christians and is second letter is complimentary and contextual to one another ,Paul's letter is not in the same vain of flow ,,similar but not the same ...

I think because I believer in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints it's not you or I who will be decievd but those coming to the faith who are not soundly converted ,,and the church is naturally combined with both ....

I realise that Muslims believe differently,, the Koran does teach that the bile is also true and is a revalation from the same God ,and I know there are Muslims that believe this and teach that because the Koran says that ,,,but then they say that it is also corrupted ,,but to my knowledge the Koran doesn't actually say the gospels are corupted ,,strangely enough the Gnostics taught that the gospels were also corupted ...

That's the point the Jesus Muslims and momans and Jw believe in is not the same Jesus ,as the knostics also believed ......,if they believed in the true Jesus with the true gospel receiving the true spirit ,,then we wouldn't be having this conversation ,they would be brothers,,,, my points was and John wrote ,,,,they went out from us because they were not of us ......,

False cults with in the church as sect and out side are still cults ,,,if they teach about Jesus and the prophets,,,they must comes very closes to crossing the line of enemy's of Christ as the knostics did and as Christians ,were are told not to fellowship with them of even great them

My mind is not made up on which cross the line. Iv pondered it for a wile and come to the conclusion the Jw and Mormons are over the line ......

 2015/11/20 7:06Profile









 Re:

Gary, no, I was not trying to be funny. I did not know which verses in John you were referring to. I thought you meant the verses on John 18. Where Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. Did not realize you were discussing other verses.

 2015/11/20 7:49









 Re:

Diane regarding your post. It was very insightful. I do agree. Basically we should look at the refugees, particularly if they are Muslem, as opportunity to share Jesus. Using words only when necessary. :-)

 2015/11/20 7:51
docseth1
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Joined: 2008/5/17
Posts: 173
Valdosta, Ga

 Re: Is It UnChristian To Not Want Syrian Refugees?

My intent was to merely express concern over the entrance of terrorist into our country using refugee status. This has nothing to do with race, color or culture; just safety. As Christians, we should love and evangelize all people. This post is about safety alone. How our government chooses to respond to this situation will be completely up to them. As concerned citizens, I think it is our duty to express concern where we see danger. This is all this post intended.


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Cliff

 2015/11/20 13:35Profile





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