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Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

JFW, thanks. some interesting points about the Armenians. I have heard something about this, but worth looking into more.

I think some too easily dismiss the anti-Semitism as within the false church and Roman Catholic in particular. The evidence shows it included most mainstream churches, and particularly reformed churches such as the Lutheran church. What Martin Luther wrote about the Jews was abhorrent and it was this that helped justified the Nazis in what they did in the holocaust.

What the film shows is the direct connection of replacement theology to anti- Semitism. It may not be that people who hold to replacement theology are anti-Semitic, but one opens wide the door to the other. I am always perplexed to see that Christians who hold to the view that Israel has no national future in God's plan more often than not are anti-Israel in these days. They seem to see very little wrong with all the atrocities committed by the Palestinian Islamists, but make much of Israel trying to defend themselves. Why are they anti-Israel?? This is very worrying and can only be a spiritual thing. You don't see them anti any other nation in particular.


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Dave

 2015/10/26 14:29Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE:///What the film shows is the direct connection of replacement theology to anti- Semitism. It may not be that people who hold to replacement theology are anti-Semitic, but one opens wide the door to the other. ///

I think that we need to becareful with sterotyping.
the phrase replacement theology means different things to different people.

If we are to say that the gentiles have replaced the jews as Gods chosen people than we are totally out of touch and indeed are full of anti- Semitism.

The understanding that the Church (True Israel of God) made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles is Gods Holy nation of whom recieves the promises, That view is seems to be historic Christianity.

Christian supersessionist like Dietrich Bonhoeffer actively resisted the racist actions of the Nazi regime :

'Protestant theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer stands out among the Christian leaders during the Nazi era, for he was one of the few to actively resist the racist actions of the Nazi regime.'...

...In 1931, Bonhoeffer took a teaching position with the theological faculty in Berlin. There he produced many of his theological writings, in which he took a traditional viewpoint in Jewish-Christian relations, believing that the Jewish people must ultimately accept Jesus as the Messiah. This theological work greatly increased his prominence in the Christian German community...

...Bonhoeffer's defense of the Jews, however, was based on Christian supersessionism - the Christian belief that Christianity had superseded Judaism as the new chosen people of God. Despite his outspoken defense of victims of Nazi persecution, Bonhoeffer still maintained, on a religious level, that the "Jewish question" would ultimately be solved through Jewish conversion to Christianity. The Church strongly advocated this view, as did the ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Bonhoeffer.html

 2015/10/26 14:53Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

PP, interesting facts on Bonhoeffer. I'm not sure how much it was that he was against Nazism per say and how much it was because of their antisemitism.

Yes Christianity has replaced Judaism, in that the NT has replaced the OT, but it completely different to say that God has transfered His promises to ethnic Israel to the Church. These go back before the Mosaic covenant.Judasim is not a people, it is a religion.


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Dave

 2015/10/26 15:32Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
“I think that we need to becareful with sterotyping.
the phrase replacement theology means different things to different people.

If we are to say that the gentiles have replaced the jews as Gods chosen people than we are totally out of touch and indeed are full of anti- Semitism.

The understanding that the Church (True Israel of God) made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles is Gods Holy nation of whom recieves the promises, That view is seems to be historic Christianity.”



Amen. The term “replacement theology” is very misleading imo. I personally prefer “continuation theology” or “fulfillment theology” for the view I and many other believers hold and have held throughout the Church’s history; meaning that the New Testament Church is a continuation of the Church or People of God of the Old Testament (despite the fact that there is indeed a New Covenant through the blood of Christ we are one with the OT saints -see Acts 7:38 which mentions the "ekklessia"/church in the wilderness in the OT; Ps. 22:2; Heb. 2:12; Heb. 12:22-23); and Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Old Testament Israel; Jesus is the truest Israelite of whom national Israel was a type and shadow (see Isa. 42; Isa. 49:3; Hos. 11:1; Matt.2:15); Jesus Christ is the truest of all Jews who perfectly fulfilled all the Old Covenant precepts on behalf of His people, both Old and New Testament saints. We become spiritual Israel (Abraham’s spiritual seed) by virtue of faith in Christ (see Gal. 3:7-9,14,16,28).

It’s sad to note how many believers are quick to label us anti-Semitic or semi-anti-Semitic for our stance, a stance which is based on us seeing the Scriptures clearly teaching this viewpoint. I mean, surely if you are Dispensational you should at least understand that we at least have seemingly good reasons for holding to this view in light of so many Scriptures we point to.


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Oracio

 2015/10/26 15:41Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5584
NC, USA

 Re:

In regard to "ethnic Israel," what does this mean? We are 100s of generations from when the original promises were made. What % Jewish lineage must one have to be considered "Jewish?" For example, if s Jew marries a non-Jew and their children marry non-Jews etc are the offspring several generations down "Jewish?" Just a practical question.


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Todd

 2015/10/26 15:47Profile
JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1436
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Brother Dave,
Yeah replacement theology never found a place of peace with me, nor does dispensationalism... Just couldn't get either of them to jive with scripture. For me whatever position I take has to to find harmony with scriptures from beginning to end without exception. When I find an exception in scripture, it's me that needs adjusting and I must humble myself before the word and allow the Lord to grow me as He will.
So often I've found brethren to be stubborn when confronted by the word and this, it seems, stems from a predisposition (sometimes anti-semtism) that they find scriptures to justify themselves erroneously in these positions. It's not only sad but truly an affront to the cause Christ.

It's not a coincidence (as the film mentions) that the "human rights" groups have much to criticize Israel for in their defending their own people from attacks but so little about Syria for example,... there really does seem to be a bias that supersedes rational discourse.


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Fletcher

 2015/10/26 16:31Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Quote: "In regard to "ethnic Israel," what does this mean".

It means the same as an ethnic Kurd, or an ethnic Chinese! Again, why is this type of question is only directed to Jews, never other ethnic groups?
you got to ask yorself what us behind this sort of questioning!

You see it never stops at a theological concept of whether there is a future kingdom, it always becomes personal to question possibility of there even being a truly Jewish race.


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Dave

 2015/10/26 16:47Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

A few months ago I learned that there are multitudes of orthodox Jews, including many many orthodox rabbis (you can easily find their videos and articles online) who are opposed to Zionism (which has been the case since at least the 1800s when Zionism began as a concept from what I understand). They have accepted their dispersion among the nations as God's judgment against them. They see Zionism as being responsible for fueling anti-Semitic sentiments among the nations. They feel that Zionists have twisted the Old Testament Scriptures to promote and advance their secular, atheistic political interests and agenda and much blood has been unnecessarily shed as a result. I thought that that was interesting to say the least.


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Oracio

 2015/10/26 17:17Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5584
NC, USA

 Re:

quote;

"Again, why is this type of question is only directed to Jews, never other ethnic groups?
you got to ask yorself what us behind this sort of questioning!"

Calm down there. I ask this because this is what we are talking about. I could easily ask the same question about Chinese, Hungarian or Outer Slabovian if we were talking about them.

Personally, I have a pretty limited idea of my lineage other than there is some English and German and Dutch and possibly some Swiss thrown in for good measure.

Please don's assign evil motives to those who view things differently than you. Why would I or any other true Christian, have any desire to be anti-Semitic?

I agree there is rampant anti-Semitism in the world and always has been. That may be the devil's work (but Art Katz thought it was God's work). But again I ask why would a true believer be anti-Semitic? It doesn't make any sense, at least to me. Martin Luther was a true believer but he was very badly mistaken in this area and was likely a product of his times.



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Todd

 2015/10/26 17:22Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2067


 Re: new creature

"If we are to say that the gentiles have replaced the jews as Gods chosen people than we are totally out of touch and indeed are full of anti- Semitism.

The understanding that the Church (True Israel of God) made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles is Gods Holy nation of whom recieves the promises, That view is seems to be historic Christianity"

The only chosen people are those who are of faith in Christ.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

In that new creation there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free man, but Christ is everything and is in all of us. Col. 3:11

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 2015/10/26 18:24Profile





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