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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A sincere question about the one new man and covenants made with Israel

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 Re:

Everything happening to the geo-political nation of Israel today in the physical is Satan's only way of counterfeiting what is happening to true, spiritual Israel in the heavenlies and taking people's eyes off of God's true "nation" and objective which is the gospel, which is Christ! This is how the Enemy works; distraction, physical realm and reasonable alternatives. He will not deal with the spiritual realm or risk revealing it to people. He always tries to bring men's thoughts into the physical realm. Walk by sight and not by faith.

And many are being deceived.

 2015/10/24 15:48
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 742


 Re:

Or is it the replacement theology that is counterfeit deception of Satan.

Think prayerfully about it, let everyone read their bible personally and don't be lost or be deceived in the convolution of words and insertions of doctrinal presumptions in the integrity of the word and promises of God.

If God had dealt thus with the physical nation of Israel then the gentile church would have been cast out long ago because of sin. Thankfully, it is the grace and integrity of God that keeps all the branches alive and not the doctrines of man.

Jeremiah 31:35-37

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Zechariah 14:1-4

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This did not happen in 70 AD unless one is reading it in the light of some doctrinal presumptions.

 2015/10/24 17:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by passerby on 2015/10/24 17:32:53

Or is it the replacement theology that is counterfeit deception of Satan.

Think prayerfully about it, let everyone read their bible personally and don't be lost or be deceived in the convolution of words and insertions of doctrinal presumptions in the integrity of the word and promises of God.

If God had dealt thus with the physical nation of Israel then the gentile church would have been cast out long ago because of sin. Thankfully, it is the grace and integrity of God that keeps all the branches alive and not the doctrines of man.



Passerby,

They are both deceptions.

There is no such thing as a Gentile Church, just like there is no such thing as a Jewish Church. There is only the Church of God. (Act 20:28, 1Co 1:2, 1Co 10:32, 1Co 11:22, 1Co 15:9, 2Co 1:1, Gal 1:13, 1Tim 3:5)

The Enemy is a divider, a segragationist and wants us to think in these terms, (i.e. Gentile Church, Jewish Church).

There is no reference to the Church of the Jews or the Church of the Gentiles in Scripture. If anyone understands the work of Christ, they would understand that those are ridiculous phrases.

There is no Gentile Bride or Jewish Bride, only the Bride of Christ. For the first 15 years after Pentecost, the Church was made up of only converted or Jews until Cornelius in Acts 10 – so this so-called “Gentile Church” thing is just not true and can only lead to anti-Semitic attitudes which dampen the need to reach His Chosen People.

There is no Body of Christ without Jew and Gentile which have taken on the identity of Jesus Christ.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL.

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, but one new man.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Christ suffered and died to do away with all enmity between Jewish and Gentile Believers.

I will keep saying that without a Christocentric view of scriptures men will always get bogged down in earthly mindsets.

1Cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, NOR TO THE CHURCH OF GOD;

 2015/10/24 19:16









 Re:

Bears repeating:

Jeremiah 31:35-37

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Zechariah 14:1-4

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 2015/10/24 20:08
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 742


 Re:

Indeed there is one spiritual church which the apostle Paul described having the natural and wild branches:

Romans 11:17-18 " But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root3 of the olive tree,

Do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you".

Many things you have said were true but you have gone overboard with these daring statements:

1. I believe the scriptures teach that God has completed His work with Israel as a physical nation on earth. Previously, I listed many verses where God had fulfilled all His promises to Israel.

2. For God to restore physical Israel, He would have to go against much of what He said in the Scriptures.

What is that to you if God restore again the ancient land of Israel in the fulfillment of His words, for the sake of their forefathers, perhaps for their last chance to repent.

 2015/10/24 20:47Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re: A sincere question about the one new man and covenants made with Israel

Here are my thoughts - would love to hear your views on them:

1. I believe Romans 11:26 ("and in this way all Israel will be saved...") merits some attention because it is regularly brought up in eschatological discussions concerning Israel.

My belief is that "all Israel" in this verse refers to spiritual Israel, which would concur with the earlier passages in Romans 11.

Some have adopted a different interpretation, arguing that this verse implies all ethnic Jews would be saved, but I believe such an interpretation would not be consistent with John 5:43 ("if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him" - a prophetic allusion to the antichrist), as well as verses such as Matthew 24:15-22 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

2. The promise that God extended to Abraham's descendants concerning the land of Israel was unconditional.

The question is then - who are Abraham's descendants? In John 8 and Romans 9, it is made clear that the children of Abraham and those who are in Jesus Christ. Christians are the real Jews (Romans 2:28-29).

Hence my take on this issue is that the land of Israel has been given to Christians by God through Abraham. But we do not have the prerogative to take the land by force - there is no need for that, because Christ will reclaim the land for Himself. This especially makes sense if you believe that the 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ on earth would be fulfilled literally.

3. Incidentally - lest such a belief contribute to antisemitic attitudes, Paul explicitly warns against that in Romans 11 (c.f. cultivated olive tree v.s. wild olive tree). He deftly discusses both ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel, their importance to God, and their respective roles in His plan for the future. Don't forget that Jesus is a Jew, and He's the firstborn among many brethren.

These theological perspectives do not directly tell us whether we should support a pro-Israel foreign policy. Neither do they tell us whether a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestianian conflict should be pursued. However, these political considerations are of earthly matters, and hence not significant from the broader, spiritual perspective. We can be sure that there can be no lasting peace in Israel until Jesus reigns.

 2015/10/24 21:29Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by passerby on 2015/10/24 20:47:42

What is that to you if God restore again the ancient land of Israel in the fulfillment of His words, for the sake of their forefathers, perhaps for their last chance to repent.



Does "BETTER COUNTRY" mean anything to you?

God has a much better "country" and "city" in mind than any earthly land.

Heb_11:16 But now they desire a BETTER COUNTRY, THAT IS, AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: FOR HE HATH PREPARED FOR THEM A CITY.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Jews last chance to repent, not an earthly land or city. It was good enough for Paul and thousands of Jews in the 1st century and it will have to suffice for Jews in our day. Not just Jews but all men.

 2015/10/24 21:42









 Re:

Quote:
by yuehan on 2015/10/24 21:29:09
We can be sure that there can be no lasting peace in Israel until Jesus reigns.



When Jesus reigns in men's hearts He is reigning on earth.

 2015/10/24 21:46









 Re:

by Rev__Enue on 2015/10/24 20:08:01

Bears repeating:

Zechariah 14:1-4




Re-read Zech 14 and you will (hopefully) see that many things have already been fulfilled.

For instance:
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Living waters are going out from "Jerusalem above", the Church. The word "sea" is symbolic of many, many people. The former sea is most likely the Jews and the hinder sea, the Gentiles. Living waters, the Life of Christ is for Jew and Gentile alike who make the one new man in Christ.

 2015/10/24 21:50
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Julius21, I was tracking with you and saying amen all the way up until you stated that the new heavens and new earth are spiritual and not literal. I've never heard of that interpretation before. So I felt led to ask you out of curiosity, how would you reconcile that interpretation with this passage from 2 Peter 3 which seems to clearly teach that the present heavens and earth will be physically dissolved with fire and that there will be a new physical heavens and earth to replace this one:

"9 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless"

I also think about our Lord declaring that the meek will inherit the earth.

Regarding Revelation 21-22, I know Revelation is full of symbolism, therefore I'd say that the measurements of the New Jerusalem are not to be taken literally. In fact I also know that this City mentioned there is not a literal city but is in fact a symbolic depiction of the Bride of Christ (Rev.21:9-27 clearly shows this imo). That said, I also cannot get away from a literal physical new heavens and new earth based on other, non-symbolic scriptures.

But don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you on the spiritual Jerusalem from above, as that is a crystal clear teaching in God's Word.

Btw, in case anyone is interested, Tim Conway (a featured preacher here on SI) has recently been doing a series on end times which I believe is excellent. So far he has 8 messages completed from the series. In general I would recommend starting with the 2nd one, as the first one is an intro that can be confusing to some since he deals with all kinds of issues in one short message. Here's the link to them:

(Look for the ones that have (Part..) at the end of the title)
http://illbehonest.com/topic/end-times


_________________
Oracio

 2015/10/25 0:01Profile





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