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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : What About The New Testament Commands?

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dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Papa, I disagree. I am internally pleased to do many things I am obligated to do. And, there are times when I am not pleased but I do them because they are right and glorify the Lord I love. They are right because He said they are. I am obligated. And I love Him. Those are not opposed.

I tell you what folks, the things we do with words matter. We redefine obligation. We redefine religion. We vest meaning into words and accept our definitions as the actual full definition. We err.

You can opine on my ought freely, papa. I take no offense. And I hope you are not in the boat with tuc on this stuff. I would be disappointed to learn that you are.

But, I know what ought and obligation mean. I know, definitively, that they are not opposite to love. My "ought" to Makrothumia was not a mere feeling. It was rooted in that Scriptural command to think on whatever is true, just, pure, lovely, praiseworthy and excellent. Were it not for that Scriptural truth, Makro's post would have been sophistry.

And sophistry is the specialty of the hyper-grace / Joseph Prince movement that continually cites truckloads of Scripture while redefining what the words mean. They intend to overload the voice of truth that opposes them by sheer volume and then engage in really --- not being perjorative here, but precise -when I say this -- dumb semantic explanations when you get down to cases. They never prevail in their arguments. They simply refuse to be corrected. They frustrate you to silence and claim they have win the day with their absurdities.


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Tim

 2015/10/17 11:37Profile









 Re:

Words should not be redefined and given different meanings, either. It is the combination of words that transmit thoughts that are either edifying or not.

"Obligation" in and of itself is only a word. "Law" is also a word.

Obligation can be used to transmit unbiblical thoughts or biblical thoughts.

Examine the thought that is being conveyedg

From something that was said earlier.
(The love of God is not moral. It has nothing to do with morality. Morality is the creation of man according to his ever changing whims and lusts/desires. Morality is the domain of men where they judge one another based on their moral systems.)

 2015/10/17 12:03
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///If John had wanted to say "the man who says he abides in Him will naturally walk even as He walked" he could easily have done so and would have used the Future Indicative verb for "walk";
John was saying that professing to abide in Him, obligates a believer to walk as Jesus walked. He chose the specific Greek word for "obligation" and our wanting the sentence to mean something else only shows we disagree with his choice of words.///

The context seems to be a comparison of natural attributes.


If you say that you have a milk cow that gave birth a month ago, than you ought to have milk.

We would not understand that as implying that we are obligated to buy a gallon of milk.

add: The Key to understanding the verse is in : "He that saith"
which is also repeated in verse 9 reemphasizing the same point : comparison of natural attributes

 2015/10/17 13:07Profile









 Re:

Excellent, proudpapa.

So, we know those who say they have the life of Christ in them ought to be manifesting it.

Not that they have an obligation to manifest it, but rather it should be happening.

Am I understanding you, correctly?

He that says he abides in Him will be (ought to be) walking as He walked.

 2015/10/17 13:49
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Is love not moral? Is it not commanded? Then it is a moral obligation.



Indeed, that we love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength is the one rule that sums up all others. This clinging to God and preferring Him above all else is what we were created for. Sadly, because of our fallen state, the ultimate perfecting of our clinging and preferring won't be reached in this life.

But it is our obligation to pursue Him, and when we honestly do delight in God as our only real good then this frame of mind will be worked out in performing every duty that comes up, in enduring every trial that we face, and in resisting every temptation that would seek to steal our affections.

In Christ,


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Ron Halverson

 2015/10/17 13:50Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

The whole idea of "suffering" or "taking up our cross" which is a plain NT teaching, is that sometimes we must do things that our flesh does not want to do. We do it because it is right to do. Eric Liddell did not mop out overflowing backed up latrines when he was a prisoner in China because he wanted to. He did it because he was a servant of the Most High.

Now I agree that as we grow in the Lord that there should be less drudgery in our spiritual walk. But there will always be some things that we must decide to do even if we do not feel like doing it, because we know it will please the Lord.

I am not sure if hyper-grace folks deny there is drudgery, or simply call it something else.


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Todd

 2015/10/17 14:24Profile









 Re:

Jesus did not carry His cross begrudgingly and He doesn't want us to either. "For the joy that was set before Him, He endured the cross".

The Lord wants us to serve Him with gladness and joy and be thankful in all things, knowing that we are doing all things unto Him.

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it HEARTILY, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

ψυχή
psuchē
HEARTILY - with all your life (mind, soul)

The Lord wants us to be of good cheer in whatever state or situation we find ourselves in for "the steps of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord" and we are living for Him not men.




 2015/10/17 15:36
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

The words of the risen Lord - "I know your works that you are neither cold nor hot, you OUGHT to be cold or hot. Thus, because you are lukewarm, and not hot nor cold, I am about to vomit you from My mouth."

Did this place an obligation upon this church?

And the writer of Hebrews - "although you OUGHT to be teachers
by now...".

How many examples will it take to get a simple acknowledgment that the New Testament writers did not hesitate to speak of our duty and obligation?

Makrothumia


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2015/10/17 15:56Profile









 Re:

Maybe, not the best examples, Mak.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.


ophelon

of'-el-on

First person singular of a past tense of G3784; I ought (wish), that is, (interjectionally) oh that!: - would (to God).


Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Seems that he is saying, "by this time you should be teachers".

I think this one conveys duty/obligation.

1 Corinthians 7:3-5
Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.




 2015/10/17 17:27
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

You are right on that one Julius - thank you

Mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2015/10/17 17:56Profile





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