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 Re:

I think what everyone is missing is this, staff:

What is your definition of "falling away".

Clearly, you think it can happen to the world so what does falling away mean to you? I think you are speaking about something different than what everyone else is talking about.

What is the world going to fall away from? Satan?

Clearly, we have a disagreement with you as you do not appear to think it pertains to Christians. Please tell us what it means to you.

 2015/10/14 20:19
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1602


 Re:

Hi Julius,
No i dont think they are missing that at all,
I am not asking questions regarding OSAS,
I am clearly asking questions on how practically a falling away from a small section of the worlds population has such a big effect?And not one person who believe its the "Church of true believers" has been able to answer that.
I think they should be able dont you.

I have had "its big to God" kind of answer but thats the height of it.But one sinner lost is big to God but it doesnt cause the revealing of the "man of sin".
I think thats a fair observation.
Most posters have agreed with my point that at this moment in history it is a small section of the worlds population.

I didnt start the post to discuss the OSAS debate and many great scholars and great Christians have discussed that to great lenght which involves the definition of "falling away" and the path is well worn,
Yours Staff

 2015/10/15 5:42Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5639
NC, USA

 Re:

Staff-

What do YOU think the "restrainer" is?


_________________
Todd

 2015/10/15 7:17Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1651
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Staff, may I ask what leads you to conclude that the apostasy of 2 Thess. 2 causes the revelation of the man of sin/lawlessness?

The passage does not state a causal link between the two. There is a sequence, but not a cause, in the passage as it relates those two. I am asking you to explain, exegetically and expositionally, how there is one.


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Tim

 2015/10/15 7:21Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3421
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:


I'm going to throw a wrench into this mess, staff. It may or may not be worth anything to the thread.

I am reading a secular book called, "One Second Away," (yes, I know!), and it is about our enemies setting off a nuclear bomb ABOVE or in the atmosphere and causing an EMP (Electromagnetic pulse) that sends the United States back to the 1960's. (In my opinion, that is one the few ways they will disarm us in a matter of a second.)

But upon reading this book, as water and food AND medicine dwindles, neighbors, friends and loved ones turn on each other. This isn't a book about Christians but as I read it and listen to it (on the way to work), I thought about this thread talk!!

I'm also thinking about all the Christians who will not trust God for their welfare and it gave me the shivers. My point in even bringing this up is that maybe the 'falling away' isn't religious in nature at all! Maybe it's plainly and simply, "This day I set before you life and death, choose life that you may live." And many won't, they will try to save their natural life, opposite of what our Lord says.

Just a thought a my friends!!
God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2015/10/15 8:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Hi Julius,
No i dont think they are missing that at all, I am not asking questions regarding OSAS, I am clearly asking questions on how practically a falling away from a small section of the worlds population has such a big effect?



May I ask you a question? You say "has such a big effect"?

I want to ask you, who are you referring to that it has a big effect on? The world or the Church? I don't think the world cares, so you are referring to the Church but then again you don't think the falling away is the church? So, we are talking about 2 different things because your concept of the falling away is different than others.

We all know when one brother falls away it is very sad as we have all experienced this. But, to have MANY fall away would have a significant effect on the Church. The Scriptures use the word MANY, several times in Matt 24 and Luke 21.

You also do not answer our questions. This works both ways staff. You want us to answer your questions but you won't answer ours.

This is what you have revealed:

1) you believe the falling away is not the church
2) you believe the church is the restrainer spoken about in 2 Thess so when the restrainer is taken out that proves the rapture because the church will be taken out.
3) you are trying to build a case (back door build since you won't admit anything) for pre-trib rapture
4) you do indeed believe in OSAS from simple deduction of your statements.

But why all the riddles and equations? And why won't you be forthcoming with what your true motives are? Because, everyone can see what you are doing.

Quote:
didnt start the post to discuss the OSAS debate and many great scholars and great Christians have discussed that to great length which involves the definition of "falling away" and the path is well worn,
Yours Staff



We all can see why you started the post, now. It is indeed about OSAS and pre-trib rapture.

The reason you are not getting your questions answered THE WAY YOU WANT is because no one knows the answers to those questions.

No one is able to answer:

1) how big in numbers the falling away will be, whether great or small.
2) because no one knows any numbers on the falling away, no one knows the actual effect it will cause. We just have been warned by the Lord not to be deceived that MANY will be offended and betray one another.

Matt_24:10 And then shall MANY be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but ALL MEN FORSOOK ME: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

I would say that ALL MEN was pretty significant to Paul, wouldn't you. This "ALL MEN" was not the world, either it was brothers.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive MANY.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter IN AMONG YOU, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also OF YOUR OWN SELVES SHALL MEN ARISE, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

False prophets arise in the Church. Again, we don't know how to quantify MANY.

Matt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of MANY shall wax cold.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Again, the word MANY and we don't know the numbers. But we see Jesus telling the Church to repent

We don't know how to quantify "MANY". You don't know how, either so you can't make an equation.

2) No one knows exactly who the restrainer is but the source of course is God.
3) Restrainer can't be Christains and we have answered why and you can see for yourself. Look around, there is no rapture and evil is increasing around the globe. Just the fact that pornography is now available to all men, women and children on earth should be a clue to you that the Church has not restrained anything. The 20th century saw over 100 million people killed in wars.

So, I disagree that no one has answered your questions. You have been playing coy with your words, laying a trap for people (by not disclosing your true motives, but everyone sees them anyway) and they have seen it and are not falling into it on purpose. Plus some of your questions are unanswerable, even to you.

 2015/10/15 9:07
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5639
NC, USA

 Re:

Lisa-

What you are saying could happen; the problem is that the word "apostasy" in scripture refers to a falling away from faith, not a general falling away from civilized behavior, or obedience to civil authorities.

In other words, if people start killing each other in the wake of same disaster (I remember an old movie called "panic in the year zero") that isn't apostasy. It's just people behaving like animals.

Now, it is entirely possible that some major disaster COULD cause apostasy in the church, no doubt. I guarantee many so called Christians will recant everything to save their own skins or to protect their stash of food, water, ammo, and gold coins.

May God grant us grace not to be numbered with them.


_________________
Todd

 2015/10/15 11:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by TMK on 2015/10/15 11:15:05

Lisa-

What you are saying could happen; the problem is that the word "apostasy" in scripture refers to a falling away from faith, not a general falling away from civilized behavior, or obedience to civil authorities.

In other words, if people start killing each other in the wake of same disaster (I remember an old movie called "panic in the year zero") that isn't apostasy. It's just people behaving like animals.

Now, it is entirely possible that some major disaster COULD cause apostasy in the church, no doubt. I guarantee many so called Christians will recant everything to save their own skins or to protect their stash of food, water, ammo, and gold coins.

May God grant us grace not to be numbered with them.



If apostasy is worldly people falling away from civilized behavior then that has been happening for millenia and the Church has not been able to stop it.

In like manner, Christians have fallen away in each century, but the end times falling away seems to be more significant than sporadic falling away through the past centuries.

Although, we do have cases of mass falling away like this:
2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that ALL THEY WHICH ARE IN ASIA be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

True, we cannot assume they turned away from Christ, but why would they not turn away from Christ yet turn away from Paul?

It seems they turned away from Christ:
2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Php 2:20 For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state.
Php 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

Today, the known world is much greater than just Asia, but that was definitely highly significant at the time.

Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Many shall be offended by Christ and the Cross.

Mat_11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be OFFENDED in me.

Mat_13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is OFFENDED.

Mat_24:10 And then shall many be OFFENDED, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat_26:33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be OFFENDED because of thee, yet will I never be OFFENDED.

Peter fell away, but then by the grace of God, he came back.

John_16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be OFFENDED.

 2015/10/15 11:36
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3421
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
What you are saying could happen; the problem is that the word "apostasy" in scripture refers to a falling away from faith, not a general falling away from civilized behavior, or obedience to civil authorities.


It IS falling away if they don't choose trust they Lord and try to save their own life. Well, that's how I see it anyway!!


_________________
Lisa

 2015/10/15 15:00Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1602


 Re:

Hi Julius
Qoute:
No one is able to answer:

1) how big in numbers the falling away will be, whether great or small.
2) because no one knows any numbers on the falling away, no one knows the actual effect it will cause. We just have been warned by the Lord not to be deceived that MANY will be offended and betray one another

1.We do know the figures if it happens now
Somewhere between 1 person and 2 billion people(if 100% fall away)and all that 2 billion are saved.
2.Are you now changing your mind and linking the number of people that fall away to the effect that it will cause?
Yours Staff

 2015/10/15 19:41Profile





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