SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Double post.

 2015/10/12 18:09
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1602


 Re:

Hi Julius,
I put this post up because I saw something I hadnt seen before a fundamental flaw in the falling away issue.I didnt want to talk about the other issues they can be put up on other posts.

The qoute:
By the way, it may not be great in numbers but it is significant to the Lord if even 1 out of 100 sheep go astray

Has nothing to do with what im talking about your explaining significance from" Gods love" Point of view not the worlds and its quite clear in my opinion and in all other people who have shared a view that the falling away will not be 1 in a 100 but a very high percentage.Its all about the maths it doesnt work at the moment.Their cannot be a falling away if it is from the church only at the moment.
What I have said in writing is clear and consistant and narrow in focus and somehow this post has been moved off a very clear topic.
Which is the "falling away" cannot happen at the moment if it is the church only.
We know that God cares deeply about the 1 and even the cattle in Nineveh he cared about and considered them significant.
Do you think the falling away will be a high percentage of the global population?I do think the falling away will be high percentage.
Yours Staff

 2015/10/12 21:20Profile









 Re:

No, I don't think the falling away will be a high percentage of the world's population.

And, how can you do math when you don't know what the equation should be?

It's not about equations. There is no equation.

You start your equation off with big numbers and the scriptures never say "great" falling away.

And you persist with "great" numbers, despite the scripture not mentioning that.

You don't know anything, anymore than anyone else.

Only the Lord knows them that are His.

 2015/10/12 21:45
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1651
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Staff, brother, I truly do not understand what your point is in this thread.

Let's all assume, safely, that the apostasy of 2 Thess. 2 will be a "small percentage" of the world population.

Let's assume further that those who do not fall away will be as small or smaller than the apostasy, numbers wise. IDK if that will be so, but humor me, please.

I ask with all respect, what is the importance of these numbers to the thought you are trying very hard to communicate?


_________________
Tim

 2015/10/13 0:46Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1602


 Re:

Hi Dolfan,
I have explained the point i am making over and over again,
It is so simple but il humour you lol!
The importance is this that the falling away is mentioned by Jesus so its 1-a big thing 2-It has to happen before the man of sin is revealed-big consequences,
If the apostasy is small in number it will not have any global consequence.
If anyone really thinks that the apostasy is small why do we continually talk about?
So its a big thing not a small thing and their will be big numbers and big consequences in my opinion.
We do not have the numbers in the true Church for this big falling away they are not there.
Conclusion:If the falling away is to happen and it is only Church people true believers it cant happen until the numbers are much higher and thats important.
Thats why its difficult to answer this question
Do you think the numbers involved in the falling away will be a large portion of the worlds population?(if you have a post tribulaion belief)
Yours Staff

 2015/10/13 6:34Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1602


 Re:

Hi Julius,

The scriptures clearly and this has been pointed out numerous time do not say "great" everyone has agreed to that ages ago.
After saying that why does everyone think it will be great?
1.Jesus mentioned it
2.The consequence is great

If you dont think the the falling away will be a high percentage of the worlds population.
Is the church a restrainer?(not thee restrainer)a restrainer?
And why would a small percentage have such a big effect?
Yours Staff

 2015/10/13 6:40Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5639
NC, USA

 Re:

Staff, Staff, Staff...

Once again- how can non-believers apostasize?

You keep asking if this apostasy will be limited to the Church.

By definition, it must be.

Only a high school student can drop out of high school.

It is possible that you are defining apostasy differently than the rest of us-- how do you define apostasy?


_________________
Todd

 2015/10/13 7:17Profile









 Re:

Staff,

We have answered your questions numerous times.

No, the Church is not a restrainer, or the Restrainer and does not restrain evil.

You can look at History and see that they do not restrain evil. The Church is called to love their enemies, pray for them that persecute them and not to worry about the one who can kill the body but not the soul. They are promised much tribulation in this world (John 16:33, Acts 14:22).

The Bible says that "as He is in this world, so are we".

Christians in China did not restrain the massacre of all the missionaries when Mae Tse Tung came to power.

They did not restrain the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre.

Or the Inquisition, and countless millions tortured and murdered by Catholicism during a 7 century span.

There are many historical references you can research but you already know all of this.





 2015/10/13 9:56
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1651
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Dolfan,
I have explained the point i am making over and over again,
It is so simple but il humour you lol!
The importance is this that the falling away is mentioned by Jesus so its 1-a big thing 2-It has to happen before the man of sin is revealed-big consequences,
If the apostasy is small in number it will not have any global consequence.
If anyone really thinks that the apostasy is small why do we continually talk about?
So its a big thing not a small thing and their will be big numbers and big consequences in my opinion.
We do not have the numbers in the true Church for this big falling away they are not there.
Conclusion:If the falling away is to happen and it is only Church people true believers it cant happen until the numbers are much higher and thats important.
Thats why its difficult to answer this question
Do you think the numbers involved in the falling away will be a large portion of the worlds population?(if you have a post tribulaion belief)
Yours Staff



Last night, I got to thinking, "Is there an equation that anyone has come up with to measure the significance of the apostasy of 2 Thess. 2.?" I never thought about that in my life, but your insistence on using math to inform you about the significance of that apostasy had me second guessing myself. Not that thought that anyone COULD meaningfully model that in an equation, but I wondered anyway. I looked for a few minutes and didn't find one.

There is a reason for that, I think. I mean, you can't throw a rock without hitting somebody online who has pulled out their slide rule and a Bible and calculated some fantastic theory about the times of the end because they believe that (A) numbers don't lie and (B) they are smart enough to figure out all the numbers and (C) they forget that God is smarter even than they are and has wrapped so much of this behind things our math cannot approach.

By the way, I love reading a nicely stated mathematical approach to some of these questions. Some are valid. I have been amazed at some of them, especially matters pertaining to 69 weeks and 70 weeks, etc. (Let's not take that rabbit trail any farther here; I just wanted to tip the hat to good biblical math.)

But, I think God has purposely made this beyond measuring because we're just not competent to know. We don't think like He does. The very fact that we attach our opinion of the numbers of apostasy to our opinion of the significance of the apostasy in the world at large is Exhibit A as to why we can't be trusted to know some things. I'm guilty, too. I would LOVE for their to be a mathematically knowable way to say "this is the apostasy of 2 Thess. 2" and "this ain't". But, God hasn't made that available, apparently.

Jesus said "the love of many shall wax cold." You want big numbers? "Many." Many unregenerate sinners, many professing Christians have gone stone cold in love of neighbor and certainly in love of God or anything connected with His goodness. Is that apostasy? To a degree. Is it 2 Thess. 2 apostasy? Okay, yes, to a degree. To what degree? I don't know. I don't see where Jesus said we needed to know. I know HE knows, but I also know He knows all kinds of things that I just don't need to know and that He cares not one whit to reveal.

Can we empirically discern all biblical truth? It seems to me that this question of the mathematical quality of 2 Thessalonians 2 apostasy implies that we can, or at least that we're not trying hard enough to find out. There is another way of maybe doing so -- correlating the apostasy with other prophesied events. That's a minefield, too. But, I do think that accurately identifying THAT apostasy is not really possible without the context of other accurate identifications of other issues of the times of the end. This requires, I think, spiritual discernment more so than mathematical discernment.

In short, I don't think you can get there from here, Staff. I just don't.


_________________
Tim

 2015/10/13 12:10Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1602


 Re:

Hi Julius,
You in particular have not answered my questions or if so only fter a 100 posts!
So if the church doesnt restrain evil then why have moral human government etc?I didnt say the church restrained all evil.What I asked is did the church restrain evil?
Also you are saying that the world's morals are the same with the church in it or out of it.How can that be?We have no influence in society?
I ask then how come with such a small falling away that the consequence is so great?I didnt get an answer to that?
Yours Staff



 2015/10/13 17:21Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy