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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events :  conscientious objectors to vaccines, forced out of California Schools.

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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6171
NC, USA

 Re: Cell lines originating from aborted babies

If a Christian is in need of a heart transplant should they take one from an executed child murderer/rapist?

Women who aborted their babies years ago did not do so for the purpose of producing cell lines to produce vaccines.


_________________
Todd

 2015/7/8 8:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Also in this case, the government wants everyone to take vaccine to eradicate a particular germ. As a Christian we should obey this good intention of Government as much as possible.



Sree,

How exactly do you determine whether the government's "intentions" are good or not?

Also, whatever is not of faith is sin and if a Christian does not have faith to take a vaccine that is tainted with aborted fetal tissue, then it is spiritual for them and it is spiritual for us to accept their decision and let them have this liberty in Christ which they certainly have. We must each stand before the Lord. My next door neighbor's son wanted to play on his school's football team and to do that he had to get a vaccination (I forgot which one), but he became very sick after receiving the vaccination shot and became extremely autistic (retarded). Today he is 33 years old, and has been taken care of by his mother and father since he was 12. He cannot live on his own and needs their help everyday. Think about that. Think about having a completely healthy son who you envision getting growing up, getting married and having a family and a vaccination, ruins all of that.

I think it is a very spiritual decision when a parent goes against such social pressure (and sadly, pressure within the Church) to protect their children. And, of course I know you would agree that it is very spiritual to trust God for health.

I certainly would not want to shoulder the personal and spiritual responsibility of a parent by telling them what they should do.

 2015/7/8 9:29
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///How exactly do you determine whether the government's "intentions" are good or not?///

add: That was a Good Question

2 things are for certain from history. 1. scientific studies are often flawed.

In front of me I have a clip from a local 1965 paper it reads : "The forest service , US dept. of Agriculture will use helicopters to spray 2-4-5-T on nearly 7,000 acres of ..National Forest. .... Careful scientific investigation and field testing have proved that 2-4-5-T is not harmful nor toxic to birds,animals,fish,or human beings,the Forest Service spokesman said"

History has proved that those careful scientific studies where greatly flawed.
Agent Orange has proven itself with time to be one of the biggest nightmares in history.

2. History also has proven that men have intentionally administered deadly agents under the guise of providing health care or conducting research such as was the case with South Africas Project Coast :

Project Coast : "was a top-secret chemical and biological weapons (CBW) program instituted by the South African government during the apartheid era. Project Coast was the successor to a limited post-war CBW program which mainly produced the lethal agents CX powder and mustard gas; as well as non-lethal tear gas for riot control purposes.[1] Project Coast was headed by Wouter Basson, a cardiologist who was the personal physician of the then South African Prime Minister PW Botha..."
"....Research on birth control methods to reduce the black birth rate was one such area. Daan Goosen, the managing director of Roodeplaat Research Laboratories between 1983 and 1986, told Tom Mangold of the BBC that Project Coast supported a project to develop a contraceptive that would have been applied clandestinely to blacks. Goosen reported that the project had developed a vaccine for males and females and that the researchers were still searching for a means by which it could be delivered to make blacks sterile without making them aware. Testimony given at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) suggested that Project Coast researchers were also looking into putting birth control substances in water supplies"
read more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Coast


"In 1998 South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission held hearings investigating activities of the apartheid-era government. Toward the end of the hearings, the Commission looked into the apartheid regime's Chemical and Biological Warfare (CBW) program and allegations that it developed a sterility vaccine to use on black South Africans, employed toxic and chemical poison weapons for political asssassination, and in the late 1970s provided anthrax and cholera to Rhodesian troops for use against guerrilla rebels in their war to overthrow Rhodesia's white minority rule.
South Africa's CBW program was headed by Dr. Wouter Basson, a former Special Forces Army Brigadier and personal heart specialist to former President P.W. Botha. Basson ran the CBW program during the 1980s and early 1990s. CBW, also known as Project Coast, was initiated in the early 1980s to provide detection and protection capabilities to the South African Defence Force. However, there was an offensive component to the program and the claims are that CBW's offensive program:
Developed lethal chemical and biological weapons that targeted ANC political leaders and their supporters as well as populations living in the black townships. These weapons included an infertility toxin to secretly sterilize the black population; skin-absorbing poisons that could be applied to the clothing of targets; and poison concealed in products such as chocolates and cigarettes. (Read the interviews with former President F.W. de Klerk, and Dr. Daan Goosen, who worked with Basson in the CBW program.)
Released cholera strains into water sources of certain South African villages and provided anthrax and cholera to the government troops of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) during the late 1970s to use against the rebel soldiers in the guerrilla war. In 1979 the world's largest outbreak of anthrax took place in Rhodesia where 82 people were killed and thousands became ill. Zimbabwe's current Minister of Health, Dr. Timothy Stamps, has ordered an investigation into whether South Africa was involved in the incident............" read more at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/sa/

'Why Africa Fears Western Medicine' New York Times wrote : "the most notorious is Wouter Basson, a former head of Project Coast, South Africa’s chemical and biological weapons unit under apartheid. Dr. Basson was charged with killing hundreds of blacks in South Africa and Namibia, from 1979 to 1987, many via injected poisons. He was never convicted in South African courts, even though his lieutenants testified in detail and with consistency about the medical crimes they conducted against blacks." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/31/opinion/31washington.html?_r=0

not sure what year it was wrote but according to the PBS artical : "....Basson is still employed by the government in the military's medical section and South Africa continues to have a CBW program but says it is strictly defensive. The country is now a member of the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention and the Chemical Weapons Convention.
"http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/sa/

More from the newyork time artical :
"...Africa has harbored a number of high-profile Western medical miscreants who have intentionally administered deadly agents under the guise of providing health care or conducting research. In March 2000, Werner Bezwoda, a cancer researcher at South Africa’s Witwatersrand University, was fired after conducting medical experiments involving very high doses of chemotherapy on black breast-cancer patients, possibly without their knowledge or consent. In Zimbabwe, in 1995, Richard McGown, a Scottish anesthesiologist, was accused of five murders and convicted in the deaths of two infant patients whom he injected with lethal doses of morphine. And Dr. Michael Swango, ultimately convicted of murder after pleading guilty to killing three American patients with lethal injections of potassium, is suspected of causing the deaths of 60 other people, many of them in Zimbabwe and Zambia during the 1980s and ’90s. (Dr. Swango was never tried on the African charges.)
These medical killers are well known throughout Africa..."

PS Edit Add: There is a vast difference between eating meat sold in a market place and injecting unethical contaminate into our blood stream.








 2015/7/8 11:28Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1936


 Re:

Quote:

Also, whatever is not of faith is sin and if a Christian does not have faith to take a vaccine that is tainted with aborted fetal tissue, then it is spiritual for them and it is spiritual for us to accept their decision and let them have this liberty in Christ which they certainly have.



I never said we should not trust God for our health. I trust God for my health. I trust that it is he who gave wisdom to men to create medicines. I do not find abstaining from taking medicine makes a person more spiritual. A man can receive nothing unless it is given from Heaven. If I take a tablet in God's name and I get healed then the healing to me came from God not from the tablet.

So vaccines and tablets available today are like clays that Jesus used to heal the blind man. They have no power in them or can cause anything in our body until the Lord grants power to them. So it is Jesus who gave the blind man sight by using the Clay. I believe taking medicines and vaccines, in the name of God is a spiritual trust in God, when done in the right spirit.

Regarding how these vaccines are made, I have no clue. Unless it is openly advertised that they kill babies to make these vaccines, I will not believe anything, nor do I find the need to examine the reasons. I will still go by what Paul said and take them without asking questions or examining how they are made.

If someone has a strong conviction that such vaccines are created by immoral practices then for them it is a sin if they still take them. But such people should keep things within themselves. Instead of coming and spreading all conspiracy theories on how vaccines are made.

Also preventive actions like taking vaccines are not against our trust in God. God asked Jews to put the blood on the door post as a preventive action, so that their first born will not be killed along with that of Egyptians. Does God not know who lives in a house? Why did he ask them to mark the houses? It is also faith to trust in God and take a preventive action. In today's world if God has given vaccines similar to the blood mark on the Door, so that deadly diseases will not enter us. Let us take it praising God. There is no mistrust here.


_________________
Sreeram

 2015/7/9 5:34Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7524
Mississippi

 Re:

I am curious - all you who oppose polio vaccinations: have you ever lived closely with a polio victim? One who had all three strains of it? Have you?

Sandra


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2015/7/9 9:41Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

sree wrote .

Quote:

"I trust that it is he who gave wisdom to men to create medicines. I do not find abstaining from taking medicine makes a person more spiritual. A man can receive nothing unless it is given from Heaven. If I take a tablet in God's name and I get healed then the healing to me came from God not from the tablet."




The Men whom are creating these Vaccines are for the most part and perhaps entirely not Christians.
And rather a few be Christian or not there system of thought is at best atheistic.
There system of thought does not and will not ever allow God into there process, and that is the reason that the system has no issue with stepping over Biblical and ethical grounds as what seems to be the case in the creating and production of many of the vaccines that we have today.

The impression that I recieve from what you wrote is that you are of the thought that since God gave men the wisdom to create these vaccines, that this is an indication that God has his stamp of approval on them, despite the unethical nature of there production.
What about embryonic stem cell research ? If great advances in Medical Science can be made using embryonic stem cells from the 1 million already aborted babies a year, than should we as Christians be in favor of such research ?

The Wisdom that these men have is not the Wisdom of God but the Wisdom of the world. It is foolishness and vain to God and they are being taken in there own craftiness.
Every time they eradicate one disease another takes its place, Understanding the pestilence only as a challenge to there wisdom, and not searching the Scripture for what it says on the subject.

The fact that "nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." is not an endorcement of what they are able to do.

I am not aware of any evidence that these Vaccines work any better for a believer than what they do for an Athiest.
all of the Biblical scenario's that you gave, originated by God and was contingent on faith in God and his process for them to work.
None of those scenario's included the participation of The Egyptian or Greek medicine of there day to Work, and none of those Biblical scenario's worked for the unbeliever.


Edit PS add : sree wrote .
Quote:

"Instead of coming and spreading all conspiracy theories on how vaccines are made."




"Cell lines originating from aborted babies" being used in the production of vaccines is an undisputable fact!




























 2015/7/9 11:24Profile









 Re:

Sree said,

Quote:
I do not find abstaining from taking medicine makes a person more spiritual.



I'm sorry Sree, I did not see where in this thread the focus was that "abstaining from taking medicine makes a person more spiritual".

Is anyone saying, it makes them more spiritual? I am trying to figure out why you would make that statement?

Do you think people are doing this only to appear more spiritual?

I think when parents are concerned with taking care of their children they are not worried about being more or less spiritual. But, if they don't have faith to use some vaccines, do you think they should be forced?

 2015/7/9 11:53
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1936


 Re:

In my past posts I have addressed 3 reasons for people to avoid vaccines.

1. People who avoid medicines in general because they believe that God alone can heal.
2. Vaccines are preventive means. Since God is my protector, I do not need any preventive means.
3. Vaccines are produced using unethical process. Somehow I peeped into the manufacturing and found everything unethical. I am not going to take them anymore.

I have addressed all these 3 things using scripture. One may not agree with any of my answers, but that is fine.


_________________
Sreeram

 2015/7/10 0:52Profile









 Re:

Okay, thanks. I now understand why you responded to PP the way you did.

 2015/7/10 10:25





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