I asked this question in another thread, one I guess we were getting off topic on, so my question should be right on topic with this thread.

My Question:
I have brought this up a couple of times here before, but it seems like no one has addressed it in a reply, for some reason everyone kind of always finds a way around it, without directly addressing it.

Question again, if something is destined to happen, and it's been in God's plans forever, will praying change God's destiny or plans for anything.
Now, just for the record, I'm not saying we shouldn't pray, we should pray about any and everything. Now, just for the record, I'm not saying we shouldn't pray, we should pray, the best answer I have ever received to my question is, it may not change the destiny but it might slow it down some.

Example: the word say's "And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars" now if we pray for no wars or rumors of wars to come to pass, will it change Gods mind, and we will never hear of these?

Simple and to the point, if God destined it to happen, can Prayer change God's course? And if Prayer can change God's course of what he said would happen in scripture, then what? I am very serious about this question, it's not some type of sarcasm, or a trick question, it's one I was ask one time by a fellow believer, and I could not answer it, so I just told them I don't know, but I don't think anything can change God's destiny for this world, what he allows to happen, will happen regardless.

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Bill

Hi Bill-

I think the reason you don't get many responses or direct responses to your question is because there is no truly satisfactory answers.

Let's use your "wars and rumors of wars" example. Assuming this is a future event (big assumption- but that's another topic) you seem to be asking is it possible that if people really pray, etc. that God's heart might be changed, so that scripture may not come to fulfillment.

There is precedent in scripture for God changing His mind, or at least he SEEMS to change his mind. God can do what He wants.

From a purely logical standpoint, if everything is truly fore-ordained, then prayer is a silly idea. I know that people will say "but the prayer was also fore-ordained."

Well, that seems a tad ridiculous to me. Scripture is full of examples of people praying who really expect that their prayers are making a difference. Jesus tells us to pray like little children. When little children ask their parents for something, especially something good, they expect that their request will be heard. It is simple faith. If we think when we pray that the only reason we are praying is that it was fore-ordained that would we be praying, then we become robots, not beings created in God's image. How can my prayer have any meaning to me or God if I am only praying something that was fore-ordained from the foundation of the universe? If that is the case, I am a marionette- not a person.

I have said it before and I say it again without apology: if everything is fore-ordained from infinity past, including our prayers and worship and any other interaction we may have with God, then God is the most supremely bored being in the universe.

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Todd

Todd, I loved your response,you said "I think the reason you don't get many responses or direct responses to your question is because there is no truly satisfactory answers".
So this brings me to another question, is it ok for Christians to say "I just don't know" or is it a pride thing, right or wrong, you answered my question. Why do Christians feel they have to have an answer for everything Biblical? It's not a sin to not know something, right?

I guess this is a question that gives many folks, the deer in the headlights look.

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Bill

Just a few random thoughts.
I think the problem lies in not knowing precisely what God has decreed to happen. There are things that must happen in order to fulfill God’s will. I do not believe it possible to change these things through any amount of prayer. He would only respond, “You do not know of what you are asking.” For example take one of the prophecies concerning the coming Messiah. Someone might have prayed all that they wanted to about the Messiah being born in Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem. The answer to that prayer would have been an emphatic, “No.” It was already written that He should be born in Bethlehem. The Father had decided that the Messiah would come from Bethlehem and that was that. Nothing could prevent it from happening, not even prayer. These are things that God has destined to happen.
There are other things that God has not destined to happen and these are the things that may be changed through prayer.
I guess the answer to your question might depend on how much you believe that God has ordained and how much is left in our hands, in the exercising of our free will. If God has ordained that something must happen then even prayer will not change it.

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Bruce

I agree Bruce.

Bill, my wife is much better than me at saying "I just don't know" and that is a very good thing.

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Todd

I'd like to post what Todd/TMK wrote from the other thread here because I think there are some valid points that...have stirred something in me.

Some great responses here! What I have gathered from these responses is, that if there is something that God has ordained to happen, and the answers to that are in scripture, it's going to happen regardless. Now to what he is allowing to happen, well I have to totally go with what Todd wrote.

Todd wrote "quote" It seems pretty clear that the Church in America is so far below the Kingdom level (per the examples you mention) that national revival is doubtful, short of some huge crisis. Perhaps that is why prayers along these lines are not being answered- God is allowing things to devolve to a point. What that point may be, who can tell."unquote".

Todd your so right! the bottom has fell out in the Church, if anyone's doubtful, just read a newspaper or turn on your TV. 25 years ago "NO" church would have stood back and watched same-sex marriage be promoted in America, they would have blew a gasket, and this issue would have never been raised, because at one time folks respected the Church, not anymore.

Folks have lost their respect for the church, because we have stood back and worried about building bigger buildings instead of building bigger Churches "The People". I read an article just yesterday, where Paula White is getting married for the "3RD" time, and she is just an example of how far the Church has gone south.

25 years ago the homosexuals were afraid to come out of the closet, because they were afraid of the Churches power to cause them much grief. Now days, no one is intimidated by the Church anymore, why? because most look at it as a business now, including most pastors. Were in a sad state, and it's the Churches fault, they took their focus off God, and now God has taken his focus off the Church.

I will and always have believed in miracles, but there may come a time, and that time may be already here, that there will be no more miracles from God to fix what we have allowed to happen. It appears the modern day Church has eaten the modern day forbidden fruit, so to say. I will continue to pray for everything I am lead to pray for, but I am personally convinced that the Church has went off the deep end, and there is no turning back now, just my opinion.

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Bill