Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| Pilgrim people|
Paul had this to say:
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 1 Cor 15:19 KJV
or the NIV:
If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
There must be something about our call in this life which would have prompted him to say such a thing? You wonder how some preachers explain away such versus.
| 2005/5/15 10:23||Profile|
| Re: Prophetic Credentials.....|
Brother Lahry you wrote;
"I so appreciate your zeal and your love. Thank you for your post. I simply cannot aggree with you".
As i do yours brother Lahry, but it's ok that you don't agree with me ... You certainly wouldn't be the first one, hmmmmm, wait a minute, have i even had a first one? ... :-P ... So as i've said in the past (to others who don't see Revival coming) God and time will prove one of us wrong, and this is the one instance where i'm wilfully totally selfish in hoping and praying that it's you!
I dont' think revival is coming. Maybe a small repentence here and there. But no large outpouring. It's not prophecied in the Word.
Brother Lahry (or anyone) if i'm wrong then please correct me, but were any of the NT Revivals fortold or recorded in scripture? ... One might want to state Pentecost itself but that wasn't a Revival, that was an Arrival ... What about Martin Luther and the Reformamtion? ... Was that a Revival? ... Was it recorded in Scripture? ... How about the Welsh Revival, was that recorded in scripture? ...
According to The History of Revival, if i remember correctly by brother Orr right here on this SI site, there have been a series of Revivals sent approximately every 50 years or so beginning in Europe, most notably in American history from the 1700's on up, and all i might add proceeded by fervent prayer amongst small groups of saints across denominational lines, all crying out to our merciful God for a fresh outpouring ... America had Azusa street around the 1900's, the Revival that was to take place in the 1950's brother Orr said fizzled because it could not compete with America's materialistic boomtime prosperity ... In other words who needs God or Revival, when we're rolling in dough? ... Brother Orr also stated that it was the history of England that if any nation missed two consecutive Revivals in a row then that nation was sure to spiritual decline in freefall ...
Now i believe that Revival's coming because i believe that's what i heard our Lord say to me some 20 years ago ... i also believe that Revival's coming because i've found on SI others who refuse in the face of all odd to be defeatist when it comes to much needed Revival ... As i said, i could be the one as wrong as two left shoes when it comes to our attaining Revival, but if i am it won't be for lack of me believing for, praying for, and proclaiming for REVIVAL! ... i totally know that God is not a respecter of persons, and that if we'd but all get on our faces in corporation, preferably preachers first, that He will pour out a blessing on us that we couldn't even contain ... And wouldn't that be such a wondorous testimony for Christ Church to be so filled of the Holy Ghost that He's just gushing forth, and running out of our pores ... The harvest is greater now than it ever has been, and the workers so few ... So how does the work force increase? ... By die hard, refuse to take no for an answer revivalist, PRAYING that the Lord of the harvest send in more workers ... i heard a preacher once say that it's or job to tell men about Christ, but it's Holy Spirit's job to bring them to Christ ... Divinity in partnership with humanity toward the salvation of souls ... There's no way that this self contained, laid back, resting on it's laurels, rich and in need of "everything holy", American Laodicean Church, will be telling anyone in the way that God requires, about Jesus, apart from the Mother of all Revivals ... No way! ... As with Esther of the OT this modern American Church needs a time period with the chamberlain (God the Holy Spirit) to get us "right" before our being presented to our King and Bridegroom ... Also as i've said before, "If America's 1950's Revival was thwarted by rampant abundance, then America's 2000's Revival should be increased by rampant need" ... You may want to take the book pf Joel in it's most literal sense toward the Israelites, but the admonition therein is a perfect formula for any group of saints in earnest diligence to touching heaven ... If what's in the OT wasn't beneficial to we NT folk, then i'm sure God would have just given us the NT ...
I just spent about 30 mins writing what I saw coming in the next few years. Then I was so reluctant to post it, I wiped it out. Sigh.
Egads brother Lahry why would you do such a thing? ... i for one would have surely liked to have known what you see ... If i feel led, or am directly told of Holy Spirit to say, write or post it ... i say, write or post it ... All that i believe is posted in these SI forums ...
"As America goes, so goes the world. The leadership and the wealth required to fuel the progress toward and all the technology needed to supply the tribulation need is in the hands of the american dollar. Greed is the number one driving force in America brother, not the Holy Spirit. This economy cannot falter until the final collapse of the economy of the entire world.
After all that's been posted about where the American economy is right now i'll not go into this any further ... If you really believe this brother Lahry then you're about to be in for the first shock, America's tumbling economy ... Did you just see what happened to the pensioners of United Airlines? ... This is but a precursor my brother ... Didn't you just take notice that GM and Ford have been relegated to junk bond status? ... No where in the Word do you read where anti-christ is tied to America, but to the revived Roman Empire, the EU ... Have you taken a good look at the Euro's symbol? ... It's such an easy transistion from the dollar sign ... Do you know that OPEC wants to be paid in Eoro's because the value of the dollar is in the toilet, but won't make the jump yet because they fear our military under the control of the Neo-cons? ... Did you know that one of the reasons Saddam is dipposed is due to the fact that he was a staunch advocate for Euros for oil instead of the $, and that much of his under the table UN Oil for Food money was being paid in Euros? ... America's economy is about to tumble way before what you stated, and when this occurs it will lead to your second shock ... REVIVAL! ... Because no one seeks after God like folk in trouble, especially financial trouble ... Brother Lahry can you imagine how many saints are effected by United Airlines pension woes, as well as how many saints were even effected by Enron, World Com and the like? ... Can you imagine the why's being asked of pastors of many of these saints? ... Can you imagine the foul feelings that must be going thru the minds of those who were assured by the false prophets that their seed offerings assured them of every wealth, health and success? ...
"I share your desire for revival brother. But I am telling you, it will not come to pass. Christianity is in under attack like never before. That will get worse, much worse".
May our Lord (if it be His will) grant us both the longevity to "see" exactly how it will all go down ... And historically nothing makes the Church strive and grow like "persecution" ...
"Brother, I'm a nobody from nowhere. I cannot find a single virtual pulpit open to me to preach. I am unwanted, an uninvited. I am not even welcome in churches".
Ha! ... Ha! ... i'd wonder about you if you could find a pulpit, and if you we're welcome ... You know i know all about this ... A side note though, Holy Spirit told me a while back that i was never to stand in/at any pastors pulpit because i am not his equal in the candlestick that Christ has given him ... i was told to either (if given the opportunity) address the assembly from the floor, or a halfway point between the floor and the pastors raised pulpit ... i was also instructed to tell the congregation why? ...
"Oh God how I hate to post this. But as brother Tozer so well said, I am responsible only to God, and He is responsible for all things. So post it I will, even though I already know many will call me a fool".
That's the spirit brother Lahry! ... So please remember this before you trash anything else that took 30 minutes to write ... i like to get the whole picture ...
REVIVAL or NO REVIVAL ... that is the question? ... Amen
| 2005/5/16 13:32||Profile|
| Re: Prophetic Credentials.....|
I seem to remember hearing many years ago, that a certain large country which used to execute Christians, had stopped putting them to death, because it slowed the growth of the church more effectively, to harrass, imprison, torture - but not kill. Every death led to 6 more Christians.
If this is a spiritual principle, then perhaps persecution and revival are not mutually exlusive.
| 2005/5/16 13:59|
| Re: Rahman...|
I love you brother, I really do. I want to also state that anyone who hungers for revival can have it anytime they choose. Repent and die, die to the flesh. Get out of the world and the world out of you. Run to the Holy One, the One Who fills to overflowing, those who obey His voice.
I have always been intrigued by the little book "Like a Mighty Wind". This Indonesian revival began without outside intervention. I tend to believe in its genuiness than some others I've heard about, especially in the USA.
Oh the pride of having my own righteousness. Wouldn't I be something? How about you? But I must shed any hope in my own works of righteousness and throw myself at the feet of the merciful One Who died for me. I would really be something if I could please God with my works, if I could suffer enough to be justified before Him. But the truth is, I simply cannot do any of this. I must rely fully and entirely upon Jesus Christ and Him crucified in my place. There is no approach to our Holy God without His righteous covering, that being the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Savior and our Lord. Glory be to God. Forgive me Father and deliver me from myself by faith in Your Holy Son Jesus.
| 2005/5/16 15:44|
| Re: lahry|
I am blessed by your posts here! I have come such a long way in the last few years. Starting out thinking i was a prophet and hanging onto hope that God would use me as such- to totally giving up any concern or care what God sees me as- just his vessel and servant is all I want to be- and it doesn't mean he won't have me doing things that aren't under the "prophet" label, or any other label for that matter.
I am not going to limit Him or limit what He wants to do with me. If we continually see ourselves as prophet or teacher or whatever.... we will limit ourselves to those particular areas and never give the other areas any thought. If we are "gifted" in those areas then how much more can God show His strength through us than to use us where we are not naturally gifted. (same things goes with all those "spiritual gifts" tests.) Believers have gone for centuries and never had spiritual gift tests- and God used them just fine :) Probably better so, because the people were not meddling with what God wanted to do- thinking they know better than He how to be "used".
Am I a prophet? Am I prophetic? Who cares! I just do what I see my Father doing.
I am coming to the conclusion that the only people who are really prophets are the ones who don't care that they are, don't want to be, and don't know they are. Oswald Chambers is a good example. He didn't know he was a modern day prophet, didn't care to be. Tozer, probably the same. It wasn't until after their lives were over that that their words and messages really came to mean a sigificant amount. Why? so that God got all the glory!
p.s. if any of this was already stated please forgive me, I didn't read throught the entire thread, just beginning and end :)
| 2005/5/16 15:58||Profile|
| Re: Prophetic Credentials.....|
Brother Lahry you wrote;
"I love you brother, I really do" ...
How do you mean this ... unconditionally in Christ ... or more in the vein of a patronizing "Poor Rahman, he's so sincere but misled"? ... i put the smiley faces in :-P :-P :-P because i want you to know that i'm not angry, but the additional "I really do" struck me as "loaded", like you we're trying to convince me ... You continued;
"I want to also state that anyone who hungers for revival can have it anytime they choose. Repent and die, die to the flesh. Get out of the world and the world out of you. Run to the Holy One, the One Who fills to overflowing, those who obey His voice".
Amen, this is something that most of us "revivalist" already know regarding "individual" revival, but of course i'm talking "corporate" revival ... And tho what i'm about to say may be a little hard hitting i find that folk who either don't believe in a coming revival, or those who just can't seem to be bothered with all that collective falling on our faces, and crying out to Him in praying repentance for said revival, are quick to point a person such as myself to "individual" revival ... Bottom line is i concider it the easy cop-out answer ... God has brought me a mighty long way in curbing my acerbic tongue, so know i spend a lot of time repenting for my acerbic thoughts :-( ... Ya'll pray for me please! ...You continued;
"I have always been intrigued by the little book "Like a Mighty Wind". This Indonesian revival began without outside intervention. I tend to believe in its genuiness than some others I've heard about, especially in the USA" .
And i've come to be intrigued by the life of a man of God named Leonard Ravenhill who prayed for revival, the kind of revival i'm talking about, for 60 years and never saw it ... i wonder to God how he did that in that i'm about ready to throw in the towel at 20 years ... Makes a brother truly understand why God had to point out the "this is what'll happen to you if you give up" clause to both Jeremiah and Ezekiel ... The brethren can be rough at times ...
Brother Lahry have you researched the U.S. Revivals? ... If not then how can you make such a judgement and/or statement as to your percieved genuiness of them? ... i can see why you might be pulled toward believing the Indonesian Revival, for you're tugged of God to "exotic" places such as India to minister in ... Whereas God on the other hand has given me a great burden for the most "neurotic" place in need of Him, the good old U.S. of A. herself, the seat of His stiff necked people and rebellious house ... You continued;
"Oh the pride of having my own righteousness. Wouldn't I be something? How about you? But I must shed any hope in my own works of righteousness and throw myself at the feet of the merciful One Who died for me. I would really be something if I could please God with my works, if I could suffer enough to be justified before Him. But the truth is, I simply cannot do any of this. I must rely fully and entirely upon Jesus Christ and Him crucified in my place. There is no approach to our Holy God without His righteous covering, that being the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Savior and our Lord. Glory be to God. Forgive me Father and deliver me from myself by faith in Your Holy Son Jesus" ...
Now you completely threw me with this ... Since your reply started out Rahman, brother Lahry are you suggesting here that i might be just a tad self righteous in some way? ... If so, then please make it plainer (pm me if you like) ... i like things as plain as black and white, i've never been one to much for color and gray areas ... If not, then please excuse my misunderstanding of your post ...
But for the record let me state to you, and all of SI what i think about any "righteousness" in Rahman ... There's none whatsoever, period, kaput of myself ... Why God thru Christ chose to "elect" me from before the very foundation of the world i'm sure will always remain an eternal mystery to me ... And why He even choose to call me in any way to His service follows a close second ...You know the scripture that compares all our righteousness as to filthy rags, well i don't even entertain as having even filthy rags to compare to righteousness ... ANY and ALL righteousness that i have is indwealt in me by the power of Holy Spirit and the righteousness that i've been baptised into via Holy Spirit has but one name, Jesus! ... SoHoly Spirit has taught me that the only reason/way the prayer of "a righteous man (can) availeth much", is when that man knows that the righteous power behind his prayers has all to do with coming from the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, and not one sub-atomic particle of his own ... "Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart" takes on a whole new meaning when one realizes that His heart desires have repaced your old ones" ...
i know that you don't believe this, and it really doesn't matter for as i said God and time will reveal, but i believe Revival for us is God's heart desire, and i believe He's placed His desire for it in my own heart, so poor misguided fool that i may be, i'm believing that Revivals on it's way! ... ;-)
| 2005/5/16 18:01||Profile|
| Re: Chanin and Rahmy|
Thank you both for your posts. Chanin, I agree, just let God be God in us. He told me that while I was in prayer once. I told Him I wanted to be all I could be in Him. He said that rather He wanted to be all He could be in me. Amen. I see that in your heart as well.
I can really understand how my earlier comments on revival would put you a bit on the defensive. Please forgive me from the bottom of my heart. I love you as a brother in Christ, and the sweet spirit of your heart.
Jesus told the pharasees that it was because they "see" that they are yet "blind". I did not really understand that until I started participating on the internet. This forum is basically blind. I can't see you, nor you me. I have no idea how you dress, what kind of car you drive or what kind of neighborhood you live in. I don't know the color of your skin, or if you are short or tall. Thank You Jesus. The only person that I can see is the one God sees, the one of the heart. I love that. Oh how I love that. I have always sensed the love from you and a sweet spirit. Please don't hold my comments against me as if I would have said something fecetious here. May it never be so. I'm so concerned that you may have taken what I said the wrong way. If you took it any way but warm and loving between brothers, it was not the intended way. Again, I apologize for not articulating better.
[[Rahman, he's so sincere but misled"? ... i put the smiley faces in because i want you to know that i'm not angry, but the additional "I really do" struck me as "loaded", like you we're trying to convince me ... You continued;]]
I was not trying to convince as much as I was trying to reassure you. Does that make sense? My thoughts were as genuine as can be. Nothing between the lines, brother. Nothing.
What I meant by my comments on the Indonesian revival was that there was no outside intervention from the western world. We have so many people in this country that will try to immitate some expereince that God has given to someone else just so they themselves can appear to be "spiritual". These folks in Indonesia did not know what a revival was. The guy that wrote it, Mel Tarri, is such a "doubting Thomas", that he is very believeable.
This is not to discount American revivals or God's soveriegnty as He chooses. May it never be. But I think most here have seen some things that were "called" revival that gave us reason to have reservations as to the "spirit" behind such activity.
I'm all for revival. I do feel somewhat revived of late in that God has been very special to me in blessing and watching over me at my request. Of course He always has, but it's just special how He's been moving lately, keeping me in perfect peace. When we flew to Houston and back last week, I have never been so confident and relaxed on a plane. I'm not apprehensive about flying, and am in fact a pilot. But it was just such a noticeable calm. But I said all that to say that I really could use another "glory touch". I just want to be so overwhelmed with Him again like the very first time He overwhelmed me. Like the folks in Indonesia, I had no knowledge are preconcieved ideas. I just asked Him to reveal Himself to me in a personal way, which He did. Oh the wonderful presence He bestowed on my heart. I could never be the same. Perfect? Hardly. But I don't need a book to tell me God is real and lives in my heart. But I just want an overflow of His wonder and love. I can sense that you do too. (Christian brotherly hugs)
[[["Oh the pride of having my own righteousness. Wouldn't I be something? How about you? But I must shed any hope in my own works of righteousness and throw myself at the feet of the merciful One Who died for me. I would really be something if I could please God with my works, if I could suffer enough to be justified before Him. But the truth is, I simply cannot do any of this. I must rely fully and entirely upon Jesus Christ and Him crucified in my place. There is no approach to our Holy God without His righteous covering, that being the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Savior and our Lord. Glory be to God. Forgive me Father and deliver me from myself by faith in Your Holy Son Jesus" ...]]]
Oh this was directed solely at myself. I've been through all that coveteousness and foolishness. It never got me anything but disappointment. I've been swelled up with pride, and God crucified it. If it's ugly in church, I've been there, done that. Oh I kept watch over the veneer outside, but I tremble inside because I know the veneer was much too transparent, and I must have been the centerpiece of many mocking conversation and rightly so. I was a fool, but it was not for Christ.
Then He finally got my attention, that apart from Himself, I could do absolutely nothing, that I should be content with such things as I had. I also had to learn to wait on Him and let Him do it, otherwise all I presented was myself, and what a pitiful mess that was.
Then one day, I began to see what it meant to present myself a living sacrafice, and that it was my resasonable service unto God. As I began to yield myself to the cross, I began to walk in peace. That peace comes from yielding fully to His leading, that is when I do yield. I don't always yield and I pay dearly for it. But when I do yield, it's fully unto Him.
Brother, you are an endeared man of God to me, and ever shall be. I never ever meant anything derogatory toward you. Love does not do that. I get so frustrated when I don't articulate His love. Would you please love me enough to acept that as being so. It is never my intention to be unloving, even when I don't agree. God bless you and keep you, lead you and guide you, and prosper all you lay hand upon, in Jesus' Holy and Precious Name.
| 2005/5/16 20:41|
Quote: I'm way behind guys so forgive me for remarking on things starting here. Validity(websters)justness,soundness,legal sufficiency. The whole matter of credentials of being a prophet is thats what they are, in the same way that a dog is a dog or cat a cat, a prophet can be nothing else and his or her validation is from God, however they will function differently in society than they do in the 4 walls of the church.Now that's not to say that what they do shouldn't be judged in the local church, 1Cor tells us to judge all things and also says the prophets should judge what they bring forth. I know a man who was at a festival where thousands of people were and out of the blue he called a little boy(I think he was only 7 yrs.?) out and told him that God had called him to himself for ministry. Only later to find out that the little boy was the son of a visiting minister from Africa, that happened not in a church or church function but out at a worldly event, a 4th of July festival. I believe that the gifts that accompany a prophet will operate continuelly or to the extent the prophet will either allow or exercise those giftings. We have limited the exercise of Jesus Christ through us in society soooo much. I believe that, even on this board , there are thoughs here who God wants so badly to use in society with those special giftings that if they would just yeild to the Holy Spirit amazing things would happen. God Bless, Bro. Daryl
I have another question, does someone who classes themselves as a prophet have any validity outside of the church? I have a small hunch that no they don't.
| 2005/5/16 23:00||Profile|
| right on|
1Jo 4:17 By this love has been perfected [or, completed] with us, so that we shall be having confidence [or, a joyful sense of freedom] in the day of the judgment, because just as that One is, [so] also _we_ are in this world. I've always loved Jesus' own words where he said it would be enough to be as our master. I sometimes think that when we set our sights on being anything other than a true expression of Jesus Christ on earth, we've fallen short of what God had intended for us and for His Glory. God Bless Bro. Daryl
| 2005/5/16 23:37||Profile|
| Re: Prophetic Credentials.....|
Br. Lahry you wrote:
"This forum is basically blind. I can't see you, nor you me"
Amen, that's why i've learned to ask about anything i'm not sure of on this forum ...
"I was not trying to convince as much as I was trying to reassure you. Does that make sense"?
Oh ok, but there was no need for reassurance in that even in disagreement i never felt anything from you but your usual mild and loving spirit ... i think the "reassurance" is what came across as so foriegn to me that it made my spider senses tingle ... Thanks brother Lahry for setting things straight for me ...
"I just want to be so overwhelmed with Him again like the very first time He overwhelmed me. Like the folks in Indonesia, I had no knowledge are preconcieved ideas. I just asked Him to reveal Himself to me in a personal way, which He did. Oh the wonderful presence He bestowed on my heart. I could never be the same. Perfect? Hardly. But I don't need a book to tell me God is real and lives in my heart. But I just want an overflow of His wonder and love. I can sense that you do too. (Christian brotherly hugs)
Amen i most certainly do, but i have this burden to see your/our experience multiplied exponentially throughout the Body of Christ, repentance and return to our first love on a more corporate level, on our faces crying out as congregations, led anew by pastors who've been on their faces first before calling solemn assemblies ...
You know when i talk to saints out of Joel about corporate prayer for revival most look at me like i'm promoting some type of ancient needless ritual ... It's hard to even get folk to pray individually about it, especially those who don't believe it to be possible ... Then i ask them is there a certain desire of their heart that they keep beseeching God for and have not as yet recieved? ... Most say "yes", and i can tell you that it's usually something "material" or "personal" ... Then i ask if they intend to keep on beseeching God about it till they get it, or at least a definite "no" from our Master ... They generally say "yes" ... Then i ask well why can't you just throw in a kingdom seeking petition for Revival along side that "material/personal" thing you're constantly seeking Him for ... That's when i usually get "the dumb look", which lets me know i made my point but doubt very seriously that they'll be praying for revival ... "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness AND ALL OTHER THINGS shall be added to you ... It took me a long time to "get" this scripture, and i suppose i have to be patient with others in it's regard ...
i have one clear vision "Revival of Christ Church" ... i have one clear goal "Revival of Christ Church" ... i have one clear prayer request that superceed any other, that Christ would please "Revive His Church" ... "Revival of Christ Church" has become the A-number one desire of my heart ...
"Brother, you are an endeared man of God to me, and ever shall be. I never ever meant anything derogatory toward you. Love does not do that. I get so frustrated when I don't articulate His love. Would you please love me enough to acept that as being so.
Of course brother Lahry, it was the "How about you" that i didn't understand but you've certainly cleared it all up for me and i accept it in that spirit of "love believeth all things" that our beloved Apostle Paul spoke of ...
| 2005/5/17 10:14||Profile|