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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The True Israel of God by L. R. Shelton Jr.

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Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

38 See, your house is left to you desolate.

39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Jesus talking to the Jews of Jerusalem.

Verses 37 and 38 have come to pass literally and in recorded history.
Now notice verse 39
Jesus tells the Jews that they will not see him again until they
say ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

Until they say, say, say, They will say because Jesus said they will say
what they need to say to him.

This is future tense and has not occurred yet .
Jesus says it will. The Jewish nation will turn to him. He has not forsaken them nor replaced them with the church,


First it was argued that national Israel did not reject the Messiah and now it is conceded that they did indeed reject Him as this passage in Matthew 23 clearly shows. Glad to see we are in agreement now at least on something. Regarding verse 39 there, it can be argued that it refers to what is stated in Philippians 2, namely that at Christ's second coming every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

At the risk of no one being interested I will share Matthew Henry's take on that verse as well as on parts of Jeremiah 31:

On Matthew 23:39
"2. Their continued blindness and obstinacy; Ye shall not see me, that is, not see me to be the Messiah (for otherwise they did see him upon the cross), not see the light of the truth concerning me, nor the things that belong to your peace, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh. They will never be convinced, till Christ's second coming convince them, when it will be too late to make an interest in him, and nothing will remain but a fearful looking for of judgment. Note, (1.) Wilful blindness is often punished with judicial blindness. If they will not see, they shall not see. With this word he concludes his public preaching. After his resurrection, which was the sign of the prophet Jonas, they should have no other sign given them, till they should see the sign of the Son of man, ch. 24:30. (2.) When the Lord comes with ten thousand of his saints, he will convince all, and will force acknowledgments from the proudest of his enemies, of his being the Messiah, and even they shall be found liars to him. They that would not now come at his call, shall then be forced to depart with his curse. The chief priests and scribes were displeased with the children for crying hosanna to Christ; but the day is coming, when proud persecutors would gladly be found in the condition of the meanest and poorest they now trample upon. They who now reproach and ridicule the hosannas of the saints will be of another mind shortly; it were therefore better to be of that mind now. Some make this to refer to the conversion of the Jews to the faith of Christ; then they shall see him, and own him, and say, Blessed is he that cometh; but it seems rather to look further, for the complete manifestation of Christ, and conviction of sinners, are reserved to be the glory of the last day."

On Jeremiah 31:31-40
"God will renew his covenant with them, so that all these blessings they shall have, not by providence only, but by promise, and thereby they shall be both sweetened and secured. But this covenant refers to gospel times, the latter days that shall come; for of gospel grace the apostle understands it (Heb. 8:8, 9, etc.), where this whole passage is quoted as a summary of the covenant of grace made with believers in Jesus Christ. Observe, 1. Who the persons are with whom this covenant is made—with the house of Israel and Judah, with the gospel church, the Israel of God on which peace shall be (Gal. 6:16), with the spiritual seed of believing Abraham and praying Jacob. Judah and Israel had been two separate kingdoms, but were united after their return, in the joint favours God bestowed upon them; so Jews and Gentiles were in the gospel church and covenant...What are the particular articles of his covenant. They all contain spiritual blessings; not, "I will give them the land of Canaan and a numerous issue," but, "I will give them pardon, and peace, and grace, good heads and good hearts." He promises, (1.) That he will incline them to their duty; I will put my law in their inward part and write it in their heart; not, I will give them a new law (as Mr. Gataker well observes), for Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it; but the law shall be written in their hearts by the finger of the Spirit as formerly it was written in the tables of stone. God writes his law in the hearts of all believers, makes it ready and familiar to them, at hand when they have occasion to use it, as that which is written in the heart, Prov. 3:3. He makes them in care to observe it, for that which we are solicitous about is said to lie near our hearts. He works in them a disposition to obedience, a conformity of thought and affection to the rules of the divine law, as that of the copy to the original. This is here promised, and ought to be prayed for, that our duty may be done conscientiously and with delight...In short, the things of God shall by the gospel of Christ be brought to a clearer light than ever (2 Tim. 1:10), and the people of God shall by the grace of Christ be brought to a clearer sight of those things than ever, Eph. 1:17, 18. (4.) That, in order to all these blessings, sin shall be pardoned. This is made the reason of all the rest: For I will forgive their iniquity, will not impute that to them, nor deal with them according to the desert of that, will forgive and forget: I will remember their sin no more. It is sin that keeps good things from us, that stops the current of God's favours; let sin betaken away by pardoning mercy, and the obstruction is removed, and divine grace runs down like a river, like a mighty stream.

Verses 35-40
"Glorious things have been spoken in the foregoing verses concerning the gospel church, which that epoch of the Jewish church that was to commence at the return from captivity would at length terminate in, and which all those promises were to have their full accomplishment in. But may we depend upon these promises? Yes, we have here a ratification of them, and the utmost assurance imaginable given of the perpetuity of the blessings contained in them. The great thing here secured to us is that while the world stands God will have a church in it, which, though sometimes it may be brought very low, shall yet be raised again, and its interests re-established; it is built upon a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Now here are two things offered for the confirmation of our faith in this matter—the building of the world and the rebuilding of Jerusalem...

The securities of the kingdom of grace inferred hence: we may be confident of this very thing that the seed of Israel shall not cease from being a nation, for the spiritual Israel, the gospel church, shall be a holy nation, a peculiar people, 1 Pt. 2:9. When Israel according to the flesh is no longer a nation the children of the promise are counted for the seed (Rom. 9:8) and God will not cast off all the seed of Israel, no, not for all that they have done, though they have done very wickedly, v. 37. He justly might cast them off, but he will not. Though he cast them out from their land, and cast them down for a time, yet he will not cast them off. Some of them he casts off, but not all; to this the apostle seems to refer (Rom. 11:1), Hath God cast away his people? God forbid that we should think so! For (v. 5) at this time there is a remnant, enough to save the credit of the promise that God will not cast off all the seed of Israel, though many among them throw away themselves by unbelief. Now we may be assisted in the belief of this by considering, (1.) That the God that has undertaken the preservation of the church is a God of almighty power, who upholds all things by his almighty word. Our help stands in his name who made heaven and earth, and therefore can do any thing. (2.) That God would not take all this care of the world but that he designs to have some glory to himself out of it; and how shall he have it but by securing to himself a church in it, a people that shall be to him for a name and a praise? (3.) That if the order of the creation therefore continues firm because it was well-fixed at first, and is not altered because it needs no alteration, the method of grace shall for the same reason continue invariable, as it was a first well settled. (4.) That he who has promised to preserve a church for himself has approved himself faithful to the word which he has spoken concerning the stability of the world. He that is true to his covenant with Noah and his sons, because he established it for an everlasting covenant (Gen. 9:9, 16), will not, we may be sure, be false to his covenant with Abraham and his seed, his spiritual seed, for that also is an everlasting covenant. Even that which they have done amiss, though they have done much, shall not prevail to defeat the gracious intentions of the covenant. See Ps. 89:30, etc...

...The rebuilding of Jerusalem which was now in ruins, and the enlargement and establishment of that, shall be an earnest of these great things that God will do for the gospel church, the heavenly Jerusalem, v. 38-40. The days will come, though they may be long in coming, when, 1. Jerusalem shall be entirely built again, as large as ever it was; the dimensions are here exactly described by the places through which the circumference passed, and no doubt the wall which Nehemiah built, and which, the more punctually to fulfil the prophecy, began about the tower of Hananeel, here mentioned (Neh. 3:1), enclosed as much ground as is here intended, though we cannot certainly determine the places here called the gate of the corner, the hill Gareb, etc. 2. When built it shall be consecrated to God and to his service. It shall be built to the Lord (v. 38), and even the suburbs and fields adjacent shall be holy unto the Lord. It shall not be polluted with idols as formerly, but God shall be praised and honoured there; the whole city shall be as it were one temple, one holy place, as the new Jerusalem is, which therefore has no temple, because it is all temple. 3. Being thus built by virtue of the promise of God, it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down, any more for ever; that is, it shall continue very long, the time of the new city from the return to its last destruction being fully as long as that of the old from David to the captivity. But this promise was to have its full accomplishment in the gospel church, which, as it is the spiritual Israel, and therefore God will not cast it off, so it is the holy city, and therefore all the powers of men shall not pluck it up, nor throw it down. It may lie waste for a time, as Jerusalem did, but shall recover itself, shall weather the storm and gain its point, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."


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Oracio

 2015/2/4 21:12Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Dear Mr Oracio

Jesus does not believe this.

This false replacement doctrine regarding Jesus
and the Jewish people is satanic, They twist and pervert the clear meaning of the scriptures to suit their warped views. Please read the Bible with an unobstructed view as led by the Holy Spirit and not through the lens of these false teachers.

Regards
Carmine


Those are pretty strong words that would condemn many Christians, including well-known and respected preachers of both the past and present, men like Matthew Henry from the past and Voddie Baucham from the present just to name a few. Sad to hear you feel that way sir.


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Oracio

 2015/2/4 21:16Profile
Oracio
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 Re:

Quote:
It can refer to them to a degree in a template and a type of events that would find a more exhaustive fulfillment late in history. All the former Rome and Babylonish type of systems find another embodiment at the end of the age in the man of sin and his sytem. Except his system will be more dreadful than all that came before. Revelation can't be seen as entirely past because it portrays the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead.



I am in agreement with you there.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that in many quarters the first resurrection in Rev 20:4 is presented as the new birth.


Yes, some say it refers to the new birth and some say it refers to the intermediate state in the presence of God. I believe that the new birth is a type of resurrection as John 5 indicates, but it is not specifically called "The First Resurrection". It's kind of like with the issue of death. The Word speaks of the Lake of Fire as the Second Death but there are actually three types of deaths if you think about it; there's spiritual death which begins in this life, then there's physical death, then eternal death in hell which is called the Second Death.

Quote:
I concede your point of the John 5 passage but what of Christ raising people at the "last day" as He referred to in John 6:44? Wouldn't the last day of this age be when Christ comes again which is simultaneous with all believers being raised including the final martyrs?



Yes, I think I am also in agreement with you there if I understand you correctly. When Christ comes back at the end of this age He will raise the dead physically.

But our difference would be that I believe both the righteous and unrighteous will be raised in the same day as Daniel 12 and John 5 teach. First the dead in Christ will rise and then the rapture as 1 Thess 4 teaches, and then immediately afterward Christ will come back to the earth to punish and destroy the wicked and raise the wicked dead physically and cast them into the lake of fire.


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Oracio

 2015/2/4 21:44Profile
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 Re:

Rev Enue:

You talk as if The Church is a dirty word.

Why is that?

See Eph 5:25.


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Todd

 2015/2/4 22:06Profile
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 Re: Christ's everlasting kingdom and a new EARTH

"Not so. What he does deny is that Christ will come backestablish an earthly kingdom. What we are saying that God's Word clearly teaches in several places that when Christ comes back He will consummate and establish His everlasting kingdom in the new heavens and new earth. We do not deny the bodily return of Christ. That would be blatant and damnable heresy. It's the view of full Preterism." (END)

Christ won't etablish an earthly kingdom but He will come back to rule over a new heavens and a new EARTH which is part of the everlasting kingdom? How is a everlasting kingdom on a NEW EARTH not a earthly spiritual kingdom?

I know there's notable differences between the pre-millennial kingdom as presented and the kingdom which amillennialists portray as occring in the new heavens and new earth. Yet the train of thinking I have picked up is that the amill view many times presently associates anything at all to do with the earthly as anathema. It is often pointed out that Christ said, "My kingdom is not of this world." Therefore, anything remotely associated with the earthly is to be shunned it is said because God's kigdom is heavenly and spiritual only. Yet we see the new heavens and new EARTH coming into play so Christ's everlasting kingdom is set up in an entirely EARTHLY setting in this view. What baffles pre-mill believers is the contradictng notion presented that all of the earthly must be shunned because God's kingdom is spiritual and heavenly yet at the same time they are told Christ presently ruling in heaven will eventually reign forever over a rejuvenated earth.

The Hebrew world view didn't see the earthly as entirely inferior to the heavenly and the spiritual. Both could exist together and the earthly really had its origins in the spiritual inthier thinking. No where did Abraham or any of the patriarchs ever voice the notion that their final destination and destiny was a entirely other wordly place called heaven. They were told they would inherit the earth. So if the Hebrew world view included notions of a rejuvenated earth what does that say to the often repeated mantra that the Hebrews couldn't see beyond the LAND (earth) and their view of an earthly kingdom was just carnal Jewish dreams?

Good morning Oracio. That's just offered as food for thought. I hope you have a good day.

"For the EARTH will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11:9)


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David Winter

 2015/2/5 9:49Profile
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 Re:

docs, Good point you make and I would like to add some thoughts to that by reminding us that Jesus said "The meek shall inherit the earth". Why did He not say the meek shall inherit heaven?

I think a reason may be is that God originally made the earth as a habitation for man (Adam) and He said it was good! As we know and experience, Sin destroyed that perfect habitation that God designed for us, so it is a big part of God's plan to restore the paradise lost. The bible from beginning to end presents this theme of God bringing about a restoration of His original creation. I think we can miss this major point. Yes there is also a spiritual reality, but that does not take away the physical. Both are important. I don't think that we will be disembodied spirits floating around for eternity.


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Dave

 2015/2/5 10:12Profile
Oracio
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 Re:

It looks like I've been misunderstood in my references to a supposed "earthly, temporary kingdom".

docs, that's a misrepresentation and to use a term you used, a wrong caricature of our position. What you described there is Gnostism which we completely reject as heresy.

What I've meant is that Christ is not coming back to establish a geopolitical kingdom on earth in which He will have forced subjects under His rule until eventually they revolt against Him at the end of that supposed period.

I will post Heydave’s post to make an important point:

Quote:
docs, Good point you make and I would like to add some thoughts to that by reminding us that Jesus said "The meek shall inherit the earth". Why did He not say the meek shall inherit heaven?

I think a reason may be is that God originally made the earth as a habitation for man (Adam) and He said it was good! As we know and experience, Sin destroyed that perfect habitation that God designed for us, so it is a big part of God's plan to restore the paradise lost. The bible from beginning to end presents this theme of God bringing about a restoration of His original creation. I think we can miss this major point. Yes there is also a spiritual reality, but that does not take away the physical. Both are important. I don't think that we will be disembodied spirits floating around for eternity.



What you have described there we are in total agreement with, except that we believe God's Word applies all of that to the new heavens and new earth in the new creation in the eternal state. Does not the Bible clearly teach that in the eternal state, in the consummation of all things, heaven and earth will come together as a new creation?

“Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,”-2 Peter 3:13-15

“Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.”-Revelation 21:1-7



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Oracio

 2015/2/5 11:48Profile
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 Re:

Another point that comes to mind is that the kingdom of God has already been inaugurated and established on this earth through Christ's first coming and through His Church. The kingdom of God is both now and future. Right now it is purely a spiritual kingdom. Christ rules in the hearts and lives of His people through the new birth. Luke 17:20-21 says,
"Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Jesus also said in Matthew 12:28, "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

At Christ's second coming the kingdom of God will be eternally consummated. This truth of the present spiritual kingdom of Christ on earth is something most Premillennarians don't readily acknowledge or accept yet the New Testament also makes this truth abundantly clear. But again, we're not speaking of an earthly, geopolitical kingdom or rule but rather a spiritual rule of Christ right now from heaven and in His Church.


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Oracio

 2015/2/5 12:09Profile
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Online!
 Re:

Saints,

Though we are thankful at times that strong extreme viewpoints can be discussed with a measure of grace and understanding it also can cause hurt and strife amongst brethren. This thread has had too much of the latter. We are going to lock it and ask that this subject not be raised and promoted on the website. The high majority of speakers on the website promote God's end time purpose for the jewish people who will embrace the Gospel in the end. We should be praying for them as a people group where the Gospel came to us originally. This is a humbling thing that without them we would not have heard of Eternal life in the Son of God Jesus Christ who was born through Jewish lineage!

May we focus more on practical christianity and encouraging each other to walk and live as disciples of Jesus Christ.

This thread is locked.


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 2015/2/5 12:15Profile





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