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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The True Israel of God by L. R. Shelton Jr.

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I'm busy as of now and might be a bit getting back to you. It might even be tomorrow. That also gives me time to think upon things without offering up hasty replies. If you post something once a week that sounds like a good idea. Please bear in minmd I am not dispensational nor do I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Nor do I believe there are two separate peoples of God, one the church and one Israel. The two peoples is as serious a error to me as any error ever proposed. I pledge my ciivlity for whatever amount I am involved.

Thank you.


Thanks doc for your civil replies. It sounds like you seem to hold to some form of what is known as Historic Premillennialism. I don't think I have any more to reply to for the moment regarding your posts.

There are others posting here and I may be interacting with them in the meantime accordingly whether civilly or not that civilly, lol jk. I'll try my best to keep my composure even if I'm vilified here in this thread, as I feel outnumbered here even though I have TMK in agreement :)


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Oracio

 2015/2/3 17:27Profile









 Re: Acts 1

Acts 1

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven?

This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

In like manner, Jesus left the physical earth, and will return to the physical earth.
In Israel of all places.

 2015/2/3 17:27
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: The current rule of Christ from heaven

Quoting,

I will post here a portion from the OP article which shows the scriptural basis for the current rule of Christ from heaven, as a reminder:

"My one desire therefore in setting forth these truths is to magnify my risen, exalted Lord Jesus Christ who sits upon His throne in heaven now, ruling over His people and over all of the inhabitants of this earth. "All power [all authority] is given unto me [Christ] in heaven and in earth" (Mat 28:18). "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him" (1Pe 3:22). For God has set Christ "at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all" (Eph 1:20-23). We will seek to show from God's Word that our Lord Jesus Christ is now King of kings and Lord of lords and that He already sits upon David's throne in the heavenlies."

docs: The fact that Christ rules presently in heaven is not even a issue. I don't remotely disute that. The question is was Christ's appearance to Israel going to be once or twofold? Why believe the propehcies regarding His first appearance to Israel were fulfilled literally while the prophecies regarding His second appearance are to be spiritually and non literally interpreted? Meanwhile, the seat of David's throne was never spoke of as being heavenly only.


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David Winter

 2015/2/3 17:28Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
In like manner, Jesus left the physical earth, and will return to the physical earth.


Again, we do not deny the physical return of Christ to this earth. But the angels did not say that when He comes back He will establish an earthly temporary kingdom. When He comes back he will raise the dead and judge the nations and establish His eternal kingdom in the new heavens and new earth as He makes all things new.

Romans 8:18-25 makes a clear connection between the final redemption of our bodies (our resurrection and glorification) and the redemption of the creation. We are clearly told there that when our bodies receive their redemption/resurrection, the creation will also receive it's redemption and glorification. There is no indication there of a temporary fix for the creation or a temporary redemption. It's speaking of an eternal redemption and glorification in a new heaven and new earth. Here's that passage:

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance."


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Oracio

 2015/2/3 17:48Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
docs: The fact that Christ rules presently in heaven is not even a issue. I don't remotely disute that. The question is was Christ's appearance to Israel going to be once or twofold? Why believe the propehcies regarding His first appearance to Israel were fulfilled literally while the prophecies regarding His second appearance are to be spiritually and non literally interpreted? Meanwhile, the seat of David's throne was never spoke of as being heavenly only.



Again, those of us who hold to the Amillennial view do indeed hold to a literal second coming of Christ where Christ will establish a literal kingdom on earth. But we are saying that God's Word teaches an eternal literal kingdom will be established when Christ comes back, not a temporary one. Our conviction is that that is the clear teaching shown in the Gospels and throughout the NT.

The prophecies concerning David's throne were indeed literally fulfilled by Christ Jesus. He is the literal King of kings and Lord of lords both now and forever. And again, He will establish His literal eternal kingdom when He comes back.

Since the topic of David's throne is covered in Part 3 of the 8-part series I'm sharing here little by little, I was not really planning on getting much into that topic just yet. But I may post that part ahead of time out of respect for your reply regarding that topic.


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Oracio

 2015/2/3 18:08Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Don't change your format for me

Since the topic of David's throne is covered in Part 3 of the 8-part series I'm sharing here little by little, I was not really planning on getting much into that topic just yet. But I may post that part ahead of time out of respect for your reply regarding that topic.

docs: I would do things the way originally planned. Nothing wrong with keeping to your original plan in my opinion.


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David Winter

 2015/2/3 18:32Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Don't change your format for me

It's all good docs, all the articles are readily accessible through the link I provided in the OP. I'll post the link here again:

http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/Shelton/LRS-index.php?page=Israel1

Don't have time to post much right now, gotta run.


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Oracio

 2015/2/3 19:47Profile









 Re:

honestly the articles by this Shelton guy are vomit inducing in their vitriol
and hatred of the people of Israel.

 2015/2/3 20:02
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
honestly the articles by this Shelton guy are vomit inducing in their vitriol
and hatred of the people of Israel.



I'll tell ya what makes me and many other believers want to puke; the idea that we are to look forward to a third temple being built in Jerusalem where there will once again be animal sacrifices re-instituted during a supposed millennial reign of Christ. That would mean Hebrews 10:5-13 is not to be taken literally as it declares emphatically that Christ is the once for all sacrifice for the sins of the world. Here's that passage:

"Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool"

No dear friend, my Jesus spilled His precious blood to once and for all atone for our sins and there is no more need for any more blood to be spilled of any more animals. My Jesus has totally done away with that through the shedding of His precious blood once for all! Is not His blood sufficient!

I mean think about it folks. What kind of rule and reign is that where animal sacrifices have to still be continually offered up to God reminding one of the curse of sin and death. No, the rule and reign Jesus will come to establish will be a perfect reign over sin and death forever.

Another thing is the idea that Jewish feasts and festivals and rules and rituals will once again be re-instituted. Many passages in the New Testament clearly reject that notion. Colossians 2:16-18 is a clear example:

"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."

Paul goes on to exhort them there not to let anyone cheat them of their reward. Jesus Christ is our chief reward and one of the many blessings He has provided us with through His death and resurrection is freedom from Old Covenant rules and rituals. Yet some expect us to believe that we are to look forward to people being once again under that type Old Covenant bondage when Christ comes back? I don't think so.


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Oracio

 2015/2/4 0:33Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Oracio- I couldn't agree more. It is amazing to me how some Christians look forward to a future day of animal sacrifices. They say it is just a "memorial." But God has already said He does not delight in sacrifices. So if slaughtering animals has no purpose other than a "memorial," why would God take delight in that?

I agree that it would essentially be a slap in the face to what Jesus accomplished on the cross. In a way it would be like a child paying his parents back for all his Christmas presents.

I think this further underlines the import of my question to Docs, "What do you mean by a redeemed Israel?" If he means an entire nation of born again believers, like everyone else must be, then why would they want to offer animal sacrifices? And if he means they are redeemed some other way (just because they are Jewish) that flies against everything in scripture.


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Todd

 2015/2/4 6:26Profile





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