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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The True Israel of God by L. R. Shelton Jr.

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Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: Great discussion!

When the disciples asked Jesus how to pray, He gave an answer with which we are almost too familiar. In this prayer, we by extension are commanded to pray that His will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. My perspective on this is that Jesus is actually making a prophetic declaration that will by virtue of its being God's will, the will of God actually will be done in the earth at some future point. Quite obviously we are not yet there.

In Romans 8 Paul gives a vivid description of this, with the incomprehensible notion that the creation will be delivered from its bondage to futility and decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

There seems in this to be in all this a single thrust- the whole world subject to the power of God, one salvation message, one savior, one division between men- those of Christ and those not.

I cannot see room for sub-plots and special accommodations for physical jews, but that does not preclude God doing things with nations to illustrate His plans, does it? There just seems to be some mysterious significance to the modern nation of Israel. In light of this discussion, I wonder where this might be going!


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Tom Cameron

 2015/2/3 11:26Profile









 Re:

The Bible is always symbolic when it does not suit some peoples theological bent. That way you can make up most any doctrine you like using the word of the Lord and twisting it to suit your viewpoint. (Works well for most TV preachers)

 2015/2/3 12:37
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
The Bible is always symbolic when it does not suit some peoples theological bent. That way you can make up most any doctrine you like using the word of the Lord and twisting it to suit your viewpoint. (Works well for most TV preachers)


I submit that the twisting has been done by those who take away from what Christ has accomplished through His cross and resurrection and what He will accomplish for His people at the time of their resurrection. Sadly, the same spirit of the Judaizers from the first century has never really left the Church and continues to make it's push for recognition and acceptance. It's an idolatry of national Israel and an unhealthy estimation of the Mosaic law and old covenant. This idolatry comes in different forms, some forms being more mild and other forms being more blatant and heretical.

docs, I'll try to make time to answer your replies soon.


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Oracio

 2015/2/3 13:33Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Docs: "yet I do believe Israel has a future as a redeemed nation."

What do you mean by this statement? More particularly the phrase "redeemed nation?"


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Todd

 2015/2/3 14:16Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Thank you Oracio for your thoughts. I'm not dispensational nor do I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Yet I do believe Israel has a future as a redeemed nation - "ALL shall know me from the least to the greatest" (Jer 31:34). This promise from Jeremiah also extended to their offspring (Isa 21). God has never been interested in them just as a nation containing a righteous remnant. God's intent all along has been to have a entirely redeemed nation in Christ. I believe also that God has broken down the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles and Gentiles have been made partakers of the promises and covenants made to the commonwealth if Israel. Yet how does that cancel the still outstanding promises made to the Jewish nation? If Gentiles can now fully particIpate what is the offense of future prophecies regarding Israel as a nation being fulfilled? Part of what was revealed by the gospel was the fact that Christ's coming would be twofold. He would come then leave them then come again to Israel after a final time of tribulation (Deut 4:30, Jer 30:7, Dan 12:1, Matt 24:21, Rev 7:14) If He returns to Israel again and that nation becomes a nation of renown and praise how is that shortchanging other peoples and nations since blessings of never seen magnitude will pour forth from that nation to all the nations? This will be in agreement with the universal scope the prophets always included. Ultimately it's not about just one nation. The Lord won't be establishing a wall of partition again. The Gentiles have had access for almost two thousand years now so how will Gentiles be shortchanged if God saves a Jewish remnant and they are established as a nation under the rule of their returned Messiah? Meanwhile, the church has even been so bold as to propose that when Jewish people come to Christ they are called to give up their Jewishness.

"It is said, 'All are one in Christ Jesus [Gal 3;28], therefore there can be no national distinction of the Jews, no national restoration, no national preeminence"...Some have surely a strange notion of what is meant by being "one in Christ," when they make thier spiritual oneness depend upon the uniformity of external circumstances. What a low idea of Christian oneness! They charge us with carnal views because we insist upon the future distinctivenss of the Jewish nation; but it appears that the charge of carnaltiy belongs to them, not to us! We believe in the literal accomplishment of the prophecies regarding the Jews, in which there appear to be many promises of temporal blessings as well as spiritual; but we lay no further stress upon these than the Word of God lays; we admit spiritual blessings to be the highest and noblest. Our opponents, however, lay such stress upon external circumstances, as to insist, that if these exist the oneness in Christ is gone. We had always understood Scripture as telling us, not that there were no national distinctions, but that, in spite of these, there was a oneness that bound together all believers; a oneness so spiritual, so divine, so unearthly, so unapproachable, as not to be in the very least affected by temporal distinctions of time, place, or rank."



Ok docs, here's my first reply and it has to be brief unfortunately due to time constraints at the moment (more coming soon hopefully :).

Thank you docs for your thoughts as well. Regarding the prophecy in Jeremiah 31 which you pointed out, the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that that promise has already been fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant He established through His blood. This is stated twice in Hebrews, first in Heb. 8:7-13 and then in Heb. 10:16-17. All the promises made to Israel in the Old Covenant are fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His New Covenant. The New Testament makes so many references to that extent. Just the book of Hebrews alone should be sufficient to prove this, with its numerous references to old covenant promises finding their fulfillment in Christ and His New Covenant (yet this is not limited to the book of Hebrews but is seen throughout the New Testament).

The offense is simply that I don't see this distinction between Jew and Gentile holding any water according to the New Testament. It's simply not there. The clear and plain, literal reading of those passages in the NT that teach a unity between Jew and Gentile does not allow that kind of view. So in this case my question is, who really are the ones not taking the Word literally?


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Oracio

 2015/2/3 14:27Profile









 Re: Some truth about Israel

REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

Rev. Malcolm Hedding is the former Executive Director of the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem.

Recently, I became more keenly aware of the spiritual conflict that rages over Israel. This conflict settles on the battleground of Replacement theology. While we reject this theological concept, it is worth noting that it is a 'new' that has strengthened itself over many centuries within churches of all traditions. It is therefore not easily removed and yet we are called to do so with the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.

To some degree, Replacement theology is so deceptive because it rests on half-truths. For instance, the Church is the “Israel of God” but not in a replacement sense (Galatians 6:14-16).

In essence, Replacement theology removes from Israel a national destiny in the land of Canaan because of her rejection of Jesus’ Messianic credentials. All the biblical statements of Israel enjoying future blessings in the land of Canaan are said to be descriptions of the spiritual blessings that now accrue to the Church. The expectation of a physical kingdom has been spiritualized and taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles (Matthew 21:43), even though Jesus never denied that the physical kingdom would be restored to Israel (Acts 1:6-7).

That this way of expounding Scripture completely violates the principles of biblical exposition is of little importance to them. We should interpret Scripture by the nature of the text. If it is literal, then we should interpret it literally, but if it is spiritual or figurative, then we should respond accordingly. For instance, Jesus said, “I am the door!” Does this mean He actually is a door? Of course not! The context is clearly figurative and needs to be interpreted as such.

We are therefore not committed to any singular form of biblical exposition - literal or figurative - but rather to the context. This will determine our style of exposition and therefore we uphold the integrity of Scripture and its authority.

The Essentials of Replacement Theology

Replacement theology rests chiefly on the idea that the whole or part of the Abrahamic Covenant has been abolished, for it is this Covenant that promises to Israel eternal ownership of the land of Canaan (Genesis 17:7-8).

Once this 'promise' has been removed, the present-day restoration of Israel means nothing and her only hope is in the Church. Now it must be made clear that we believe that only in Christ Jesus can there be salvation for Jews and Gentiles alike (Romans 1:16-17). However, we do not believe that the promise of God in the Abrahamic Covenant bequeathing the land of Canaan to Israel has been removed, and therefore Israel’s modern restoration to the land of Canaan is indeed fulfillment of that promise and constitutes a milestone on her ‘way home’ to her Messiah (Ezekiel 36:24-28).

Two Points of View

The Replacement camp is divided into two opinions concerning the Abrahamic Covenant:

1. The Abolitionists

This camp sees the Covenant with Abraham as being entirely abolished. However they have serious difficulties because Paul writing to the Galatians states that Jesus died in order to bring to our lives the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant and if we belong to Jesus, we are Abraham’s children according to the promise (Galatians 3:13-14, 29).

If the Covenant has been abolished, then what Paul says is wrong! Moreover the writer of the Book of Hebrews states that we can trust God to be faithful to the New Covenant because He has always been faithful to the Abrahamic Covenant (Hebrews 6:13-20). This constitutes a serious problem for the Abolitionists because, if the Abrahamic Covenant has been abolished, then God is a liar and indeed is not faithful, though the writer of Hebrews affirms that He is!

Many Abolitionists have perceived this problem and have consequently moved to the...

2. Reconstructionist Camp

This theory states that the Abrahamic Covenant has indeed not been abolished but it has been reconstructed. That is, the part that promises land to Israel now means spiritual promises and not literal ones. The problem with this theory is:

(a) It is a total presupposition and the Scriptures nowhere affirm it. That all nations would be blessed in Christ was actually the intention of the Abrahamic Covenant from the very beginning, but this does not remove from the Jewish people a national destiny in the Holy Land.

Reconstructionists lay emphasis on Paul’s teaching in the Book of Galatians concerning God’s promise in Abraham being made not to his “seed”, plural, that is the people of Israel, but to his “seed” singular, meaning Jesus (Galatians 3:15-18). Therefore they conclude that since the “seed” Christ has come, the promise to the “seed” of Abraham as in plural - meaning the people - has been removed! They have forfeited the land!

The truth is that Paul also uses the term “Abraham’s seed” in the plural in the New Testament (Romans 9:6-7). In other words both interpretations of the term “seed” are true! Abraham’s seed is singular and plural. The blessing God promised in Abraham is only in Christ Jesus because He died for the whole world, but the mediation or means by which this blessed “seed” comes into the world is through the “seed” plural - the people of Israel. The one truth does not contradict the other. Both truths are in fact interdependent (Romans 9:1-5), hence the extensive genealogy of Jesus given in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke (Matthew 1:1-17; Luke 3:23-38).

The Bible nowhere states that the promises of God in Abraham concerning Israel’s everlasting possession of the Land of Canaan are removed. In fact, everywhere it affirms the opposite! That is, that a day is coming when Israel will be restored to the land and to her Messiah (Ezekiel 36:24-32). This passage from Ezekiel teaches the very opposite of Replacement theology, in that Israel’s rebellion and sin has not led to land forfeiture but to judgment and correction, yet in the end God will, for His Name’s sake, restore Israel to her ancient land and to Himself! He does this in spite of her history of rebellion and sin. The truth is that Replacement theology reflects the heart of man and not that of God!

(b) The Scriptures refute it. Jesus came to confirm the promises to the Fathers, not to reconstruct them (Romans 15:7-9). Confirm means CONFIRM! He takes away nothing but reinforces every promise that God made to the fathers (Acts 3:22-26). Peter affirms that there must be a time of “restoration of all things” before Messiah returns. This “restoration of all things” is spoken about by all the prophets - meaning a final regathering to the Land of Canaan and repentance leading to salvation in Jesus (Amos 9:11-15; Jeremiah 36:26-28).

Purpose

Israel has always been God’s vehicle of world redemption (Romans 9:1-5). In a way, she is God’s microphone, the means by which He speaks to a lost world. Moreover, she has birthed all God’s covenants into the world and has now come back to her ancient homeland, by the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, to birth the final great covenant of history, the Davidic Covenant. Herein lies the ultimate purpose of her modern-day restoration. Jesus will return to Zion as the root and offspring of David (Revelation 22:1-6; Psalm 2:1-12; Psalm 72:5-11).

No wonder the conflict over Zion is so great. Our ministry, partnered with you, is removing the stumbling blocks from Zion and thereby preparing her for the arrival of her great and most blessed King (Isaiah 62:10).

Replacement theology is thus an instrument of the powers of darkness to frustrate the purpose of God, by disconnecting the Church from this final great redemptive initiative in history. We reject it and stand fully on the promises of God concerning Israel and the Church.


 2015/2/3 15:12
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Pre-millennialiosm alsways has acknowledged the use of symbols and allegories in scripture. What examples can be given of literalists also teaching the Lord has 7 literal horns and 7 eyes? Where has one of a pre-millennial view ever taught that there are 7 Spirits of God? They haven't taught that because thay have always given room for things to be expressed symbolically at certain points in the scripture.


My point was that there are symbolic numbers clearly referenced throughout Revelation and that if one is to be consistent with a literalistic interpretation of the 1000 years in Rev. 20 one should also take all those other numbers literally as opposed to symbolically.

Just as all those other numbers are clearly symbolic, isn’t there at least a chance that the 1000 yrs are also symbolic of something? Our contention is that the evidence points in that direction as we compare scripture with scripture as opposed to taking a small section out of context with no consideration for the whole counsel of God’s Word. The method of the analogy of faith in biblical interpretation says that it is safer to interpret unclear passages in light of clearer ones, not vice versa. Yet in the Premill view that principle is completely disregarded and this spin is placed on the 1000 yrs that is unwarranted when compared to other clearer portions of Scripture.

It seems Premills allow symbolic meaning in Revelation only when convenient for their views.

Quote:
They have always believed though that the symbols have concrete and literal meanings. This common caricature is misinformed and therefore doesn't pass the test of being correctly used.


We agree that the symbols have concrete and literal meanings. Our contention is that the 1000 yrs are symbolic of a real, literal reign of Christ from heaven with His saints. That current rule and reign of Christ is clearly taught throughout the New Testament and has been meant to bring comfort and encouragement to the saints throughout this Messianic age, especially those who have had to endure severe persecution. That’s the historical context in which Revelation was written (in the face of severe persecution). God wanted to comfort His people and encourage them to endure to the end because a real heavenly victory awaited them at the time of their death/sleep, and afterward their resurrection and their eternal enjoyment of the new heavens and new earth.

I will post here a portion from the OP article which shows the scriptural basis for the current rule of Christ from heaven, as a reminder:

"My one desire therefore in setting forth these truths is to magnify my risen, exalted Lord Jesus Christ who sits upon His throne in heaven now, ruling over His people and over all of the inhabitants of this earth. "All power [all authority] is given unto me [Christ] in heaven and in earth" (Mat 28:18). "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him" (1Pe 3:22). For God has set Christ "at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all" (Eph 1:20-23). We will seek to show from God's Word that our Lord Jesus Christ is now King of kings and Lord of lords and that He already sits upon David's throne in the heavenlies."


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Oracio

 2015/2/3 15:48Profile









 Re: More truth about Israel

Rev. Malcolm Hedding is the former Executive Director of the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem.

In Romans 9-11, the Apostle Paul deals extensively with the Gentile Christian’s response to Israel. While the passage has been debated by the best theological minds through the centuries, Paul still exhorts us to accept certain clear facts. The failure of the Church historically to do this sadly has allowed anti-Semitism to grow and flourish in many churches and traditions. We should examine these again in light of the following:

The God of the Bible has never “cast away His people” (Romans11:1). This means He has a redemptive plan for national Israel. He has not forgotten them and has a surprise in store for all of us. Just as Elijah thought that all was lost and hopeless, so even today the Lord is allowing a remarkable miracle to unfold in Israel. He is more than active in Israel’s present journey.
God has used Israel’s unbelief to bring salvation to the Gentiles (Romans 11:11). This has an element of mystery in it, yet the passage is clear that there is a Church in the world because of Israel’s rejection of Jesus. Paul encourages us to view this fact with gratitude and not disdain. Their fall, he says, “is riches for the world”. The Church should have shown kindness and appreciation to Israel. That is, we should have been a provocation to jealousy.
God requires that we desist from arrogantly boasting against the Jewish people, because we have been grafted into their spiritual tree (Romans11:17-19). That is, our spiritual heritage is Jewish. Jesus said, “Salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). Ours is essentially a Jewish faith built on the great lives of Moses, Joshua, Esther, David, Isaiah, Daniel, the Apostles and our wonderful Messiah Jesus.
God calls us to fear Him; to show reverence and awe (Romans11:19-20). The Jewish world can easily be grafted back into their tree because they are “natural branches”, whereas we are “wild branches”. That is, we are in a way misfits and it is easier for God to graft His people back into their own tree than to place us there. We should therefore fear God and thank Him by showing love to the Jewish people. Our arrogance against them incurs His displeasure and He warns that this can lead to spiritual death (Romans11:21-22).
God calls us to embrace mystery (Romans11:25-26). There is a glorious future for Israel. That is, her failure is only partial and one day all Israel will be saved. Her journey is fully bound up in the sovereign plan of God. His ways are past finding out but they are clear to the extent that out of Zion a deliverer will come and bring great blessing to Israel. This vision of Israel’s future will not fail. There is thus an “irrevocable” national destiny for Israel that began with Abraham and will conclude with the Holy Spirit being poured out upon them (Romans11:29).
All this means that God has not forgotten Israel and we should be a people filled with love and gratitude as we engage them. Though centuries of Christian anti-Semitism heap shame upon us, it is true that in recent decades a revolution in Jewish/Christian relations has taken place, with the ICEJ at the forefront.

 2015/2/3 15:55
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
To some degree, Replacement theology is so deceptive because it rests on half-truths. For instance, the Church is the “Israel of God” but not in a replacement sense (Galatians 6:14-16).



That statement doesn’t make sense to me. If the Church is the Israel of God, that’s it, done deal, period! There’s no, “Not in a replacement sense.”

Quote:
In essence, Replacement theology removes from Israel a national destiny in the land of Canaan because of her rejection of Jesus’ Messianic credentials. All the biblical statements of Israel enjoying future blessings in the land of Canaan are said to be descriptions of the spiritual blessings that now accrue to the Church. The expectation of a physical kingdom has been spiritualized and taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles (Matthew 21:43), even though Jesus never denied that the physical kingdom would be restored to Israel (Acts 1:6-7).



Our contention is that the promises of the land of Canaan are ultimately fulfilled in Christ and finally in the new heavens and new earth, not in a carnal temporary earthly kingdom. That’s the land of Canaan we are to look forward to ultimately. Right now we enjoy the spiritual rest that comes with being in Christ; after death we enjoy the rest of the intermediate state in the presence of God; then finally we will enjoy the eternal rest promised to God's people in the new heavens and new earth, and what a glorious rest it will be!

Again, we do not look forward to an earthly temporary kingdom where there will still be sin and death, and where there will be resurrected saints with glorified bodies living on the same planet with people in earthly bodies. No, when Jesus comes back it’s a wrap. That's what we understand to be the New Testament teaching on Christ's second coming.


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Oracio

 2015/2/3 16:09Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Thank you Oracio

I'm busy as of now and might be a bit getting back to you. It might even be tomorrow. That also gives me time to think upon things without offering up hasty replies. Please bear in mind I am not dispensational nor do I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Nor do I believe there are two separate peoples of God, one the church and one Israel. The two peoples is as serious a error to me as any error ever proposed. I pledge my civility for whatever amount I am involved.

Thank you.


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David Winter

 2015/2/3 17:14Profile





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