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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Megachurch Leader Claims ‘Divine Wind’ Moved Him to Fully Accept Members Practicing Homosexuality

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Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 708
San Diego

 Re:

Divine wind? Maybe confusion with breaking wind?

When a man preaches the Word of God, he does not have authority to reinterpret it to his own opinions of what it should say. Few rules of preaching are more basic than this.

The world's perspective is that love involves sex. God's perspective is that love seeks the highest and best for the one loved- (and occasionally involves sex- under tight parameters!). Adultery and fornication will never be acceptable in His presence, no matter how good the spin. But they keep trying, do they not??

Sounds like in this case, the kingdom is crumbling under the weight of it's own error. Believers will be wounded but find fellowship in other churches, the blind and unrepentant ones will wither and slither.

The Word of God will stand ready to save those who truly seek Him.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2015/1/31 12:53Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Just glad to see he has lost the status of mega church - his current attendance is down to 482, hopefully he will go financially bankrupt soon, as he certainly has proved he is spiritually bankrupt.



Amen. We are taught to hate false teaching and desire it's complete extermination and pray for that and work toward that as much as possible in a biblical way. Paul said concerning false teachers, "I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!"-Galatians 5:12. The Greek word translated as "cut themselves off"(apokopto) literally means "amputate" or "castrate". In the context of Paul's teaching in Galatians against circumcision it means to castrate. Paul is saying he wishes the false teachers would castrate themselves. Doesn't sound too nice or lovable, does it?

We are to speak the truth in love and with boldness and without compromise. True love warns of impending danger.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/1/31 13:06Profile









 Re:

It's sad that some people in this thread rationalize rudeness.

I find it difficult to believe that Christians find it okay to be rude to other people's beliefs and lifestyles.

 2015/1/31 13:44
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1536
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Why would you ever wish that upon anyone?

He won't be destroyed if he goes broke and ends up bankrupt your twisting what I said... Bankruptcy is not destruction... Being thrown in the fiery pit of hell is destruction...

Quote: Christ never, ever, ever, wished destruction upon anyone.

Bankruptcy is not destruction. Bankruptcy would be classed as suffering.

Quote: Murrcolr, I encourage you, see the way of Christ.

The way of Christ... Scripture say Christ learned obedience from what he suffered Heb 5:8.

Could you agree with me that bankruptcy would be classed as suffering rather than destruction, would it be possible that in that suffering he may see the error of his way and turn back to God and the fruit of righteousness would be there for all to see in his life?

Or have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Heb 12: 5-11

Edit: spelling


_________________
Colin Murray

 2015/1/31 13:51Profile









 Re:

Semantics are important. Sure, I'll agree that it could be classified as suffering.

My point still stands.

To quote myself, with minor edit.

Quote:
Oh my. Why would you ever wish that upon anyone? Why? Christ never, ever, ever, wished suffering upon anyone. He wants them to change their ways. Wishing suffering upon someone isn't the way of Christ. We pray for those that persecute us. We bless them. If they are wicked/depraved, we plead the mercy/grace/love of God for their lives. Murrcolr, I encourage you, see the way of Christ.

 2015/1/31 14:07
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

I noticed that someone mentioned that the attendance of his congregation had dwindled. That is both good news and interesting.

A few years ago, I was reading an article about certain congregations that suddenly made a decision to reject the Biblical views on sexuality and marriage. One thing that they all had in common: They were struggling with membership and, consequently, people to finance the "church."

The previous article that I read mentioned that most of the longtime members abandoned the church. The ministers who were interviewed said that they knew that this would happen; but, they trusted that new members would "replace" them. This was exactly what happened.

Most of the new members and attendees were either homosexuals or what the article called "social liberals" who actively seek change when it comes to "society's perception of homosexuality."

After reading that article, it made me think of what would cause a "minister" to abandon what is exceptionally clear from the Word of God and begin promoting a compromised version of Christianity. After reading through this thread, the article and the original article as it appears at Time Magazine's website, I am beginning to wonder if this is a calculated decision.

Some people who are "educated" to be a minister do so as a career choice. In their minds, they may be doing this as a sacrifice for God. However, it often is done with the knowledge that this is something that they will do for a lifetime vocation. In other words, they hope to be paid like they would in any other career. This happens with many preachers. They start out young and determine that they simply want to preach the Gospel without thought to money, food, housing, etc... They are ready to go to the ends of the Earth with the message of Christ. Then, "life happens." A minister gets married. He has children. His body ages. Suddenly, the "cares of this world" become something that the minister thinks about.

The Time article mentions that church attendance was between 800-1000 members just two years ago. Another source online stated that the church "averaged" more than 1200 in 2010. There was a new property at a new location with new facilities. This probably means that there was also a mortgage and group of "full time" paid ministers. Yet, by the time the announcement was made, there was just 673 people in the congregation. That is quite a drop in attendance. The old saying that "desperate times call for desperate measures" is often embraced by people who don't receive their direction from the Lord.

Like many urban areas, there are quite a few social activists in the Nashville area. While I can't say for certain, but I wonder if the minister felt this evil "wind" with the understanding that it might weed out longtime members that he just didn't care for but eventually attract young "activists" who would show up and, consequently, support the "church" and its group of remaining pastors. I also wonder how Time Magazine caught "wind" of this "wind." Did the minister contact them with the hope of gaining publicity?

The article emphasized the giving and how it had shrunk. Strangely enough, the article called the church a "megachurch" (which seems a bit of a stretch given the fact that attendance was already down to 673 on the day of the announcement -- which another article stated was higher than it had been in previous weeks). Church attendance has dropped considerably in the weeks that followed. I can't help but wonder if the minister had hoped that the church would become a haven for homosexuals who are looking into "spiritual" matters along with social liberals and activists.

Regardless, I still can't help but wonder if the minister is doing this -- openly compromising the clear teachings of the Christian faith -- for the sake of a salary, name recognition or financial security. Even if he is doing this out of some sort of "wind" that makes him concerned for homosexuals, it still makes you wonder why that concern outweighs what is undeniably clear from the New Testament. How does one reason to continue as a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ when they clearly abandon part of the truths contained in the Word of God?


_________________
Christopher

 2015/1/31 14:38Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1536
Scotland, UK

 Re:

LoveMeekHope quote: Christ never, ever, ever, wished suffering upon anyone.

We can go two ways here.

I could name this mega-pastor a brother or a false prophet.

In the last post you could say I was speaking as him being a brother - hoping that he would suffer, so that he would turn from his wicked ways so that the fruit of righteousness would once again flourish in his life.

The Father through his love for him will cause him suffer so he learns obedience.

If he is classed as false teacher: then he brings destruction on himself.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves. 2 Peter 2:1.

If he is a false teacher - then he is spring without water a mist driven by a whirlwind and the gloom of darkness has been reserved for him.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2015/1/31 15:45Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2772
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I think Christian journalists should stop spinning this hate. Christians have a call to love. To show that Christ is quick to forgive, no matter how much sin someone is in



So it's not rude for you to call the writer of this article a man who "spins hate?"

Sister, may I ask you a question, do you automatically hate someone because you disagree with their view? If your answer is no, then why do you assume that this writer does?

In Christ,


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2015/1/31 16:28Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Oh my. Why would you ever wish that upon anyone? Why? Christ never, ever, ever, wished destruction upon anyone. He wants them to change their ways. Wishing destruction upon someone isn't the way of Christ. We pray for those that persecute us. We bless them. If they are wicked/depraved, we plead the mercy/grace/love of God for their lives. Murrcolr, I encourage you, see the way of Christ.


Quote:
It's sad that some people in this thread rationalize rudeness.

I find it difficult to believe that Christians find it okay to be rude to other people's beliefs and lifestyles.



"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!"-1Cor.16:22

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."-Galatians 1:8-9

The word translated "accursed"(anathema) means divine condemnation, not just discipline.

Was Paul being unchristian in stating things like that? No, Paul was jealous for the glory of God and hated when God's name was blasphemed, just like our Lord when He turned over the merchants' tables at the temple.

There certainly is a place for righteous indignation among God's people.

This is Matthew Henry's commentary's take on 1Cor.16:22:

"We sometimes need words of threatening, that we may fear. Blessed is he, says the wise man, who feareth always. Holy fear is a very good friend both to holy faith and holy living. And how much reason have all Christians to fear falling under this doom! If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema, Maran-atha. Here observe, 1. The person described, who is liable to this doom: He that loveth not the Lord Jesus Christ...he who blasphemes Christ disowns his doctrine, slights and contemns his institutions, or, through pride of human knowledge and learning, despises his revelations. It stands here as a warning to the Corinthians and a rebuke of their criminal behavior. It is an admonition to them not to be led away from the simplicity of the gospel, or those principles of it which were the great motives to purity of life, by pretenders to science, by the wisdom of the world, which would call their religion folly, and its most important doctrines absurd and ridiculous. Those men had a spite at Christ; and, if the Corinthians give ear to their seducing speeches, they were in danger of apostatizing from him. Against this he gives them here a very solemn caution. "Do not give into such conduct, if you would escape the severest vengeance." Note, Professed Christians will, by contempt of Christ, and revolt from him, bring upon themselves the most dreadful destruction...Many who have his name much in their mouths have no true love to him in their hearts, will not have him to rule over them (Lu. 19:27), no, not though they have very towering hopes of being saved by him. And none love him in truth who do not love his laws and keep his commandments. Note, There are many Christians in name who do not love Christ Jesus the Lord in sincerity. But can any thing be more criminal or provoking? What, not love the most glorious lover in the world! Him who loved us, and gave himself for us, who shed his blood for us, to testify his love to us, and that after heinous wrong and provocation! What had we a power of loving for, if we are unmoved with such love as this, and without affection to such a Saviour? But, 2. We have here the doom of the person described: "Let him be Anathema, Maran-atha, lie under the heaviest and most dreadful curse. Let him be separated from the people of God, from the favour of God, and delivered up to his final, irrevocable, and inexorable vengeance." Maran-atha is a Syriac phrase, and signifies The Lord cometh. That very Lord whom they do not love, to whom they are inwardly and really disaffected whatever outward profession they make, is coming to execute judgment. And to be exposed to his wrath, to be divided to his left hand, to be condemned by him, how dreadful! If he will destroy, who can save? Those who fall under his condemning sentence must perish, and that for ever. Note, Those who love not the Lord Jesus Christ must perish without remedy. The wrath of God abides on every one who believes not on the Son, Jn. 3:36. And true faith in Christ will evermore be productive of sincere love to him. Those who love him not cannot be believers in him."


_________________
Oracio

 2015/1/31 19:02Profile









 Re:

I just disagree with most here. Being rude, for any reason can't be justified for the Christian. Rude by labeling harshly and by demeaning others. Which the Christian News article author did and also others in this thread did (by wishing him suffering, happy because he is losing members of his church, quoting scriptures on how this is 'garbage' and 'perversion', jokes on the manner in which the pastor came to this; 'by breaking wind', we need 'threatening', etc).

People here, might be solid in their beliefs, and heck I may even agree with the idea that the pastor isn't following Christ by making these choices.

What I disagree with is the manner, method, and way everyone is presenting things.

I believe Oracio said 'speaking the truth in love', which most know is quoting scripture. Which is great. I believe in that scripture, I believe it's totally inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I'm just saying I'm see more of the 'speaking the truth with rudeness'. As we know, 'love isn't rude' (1 Cor. 13:5). All I'm saying is there is a lot of rudeness surrounded about this topic.

Quote:
Proverbs 12:18 There is one who speaks rashly like the thrusts of a sword, But the tongue of the wise brings healing.

 2015/1/31 21:33





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