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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus and the Apostles have ulterior motives...?

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Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

TMK, I did realise the point ypu were probably trying to make, which is why I gave the scripture I did to show there was an ultimate motive (I'm using the word ultimate so not to confuse the point) in Jesus allowing Lazarus to die and then raising him from the dead.

I do agree that Jesus healed folk and did miracles out of compassion and love, but still the end motive was to glorify God and proclaim the Kingdom of God had come to them to receive. Oracio is also correct in saying there were other motives in why Jesus performed miracles. The apostles were commisioned to heal the sick and cast out demons and proclaim the Kingdom of God was at hand. So another motive for these miracles was so folk would believe the message they proclaimed.

My conclusion is more often than not there was always another motive for healing and miracles that the immediate need, which was the drawing of sinner to repent and believe the gospel and bring glory to God.


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Dave

 2015/1/22 17:27Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

The apostles did not have ulterior motives
Most of the apostles died gruesome deaths
http://amazingbibletimeline.com/bible_questions/q6_apostles_die/
If you read any of the apocraphal writings such as the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Peter you find that there is barely any embelleshment in these texts.

From the Jewish perspective the Jewish Messiah who is suppose to rule the world dies by a gruesome death and then is ressurected.

There is some books that go into this subject Miracles by C S lewis and Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts by Craig S Keener.

It looks like you do not understand the gospel to well TMK as Jesus came to save us from our sins and we are all sinners before God and a pyschoanalysis of the apostles is bad historal method if you have read any texts at the time.

Richard Carrier does it with his debate with William Lane Craig and as psycho analysis is a very recent field.

There is something called Embaressment as the bible is full of it why would the scriptures have Peter denying Jesus, one of the 12 apostles or say the disciples running away before the Passion. Why would say James and Paul enemies of the faith suddenly turn to faith after the post ressurection appearances of Jesus.

If this was secular history this would all be deleted. As whole Egyptian dynasties have been deleted and in other such histories would not make major figures in there faith look bad

If you are using say David Humes arguments say against miracles as they have been refuted along time ago.

As the God who created the universe has power to do anything he likes in his creation as he created the laws of creation such as Strong Force, Weak Force and Gravity, Quantum Physics, Maxwell Equations.

it sound like that you do not know Jesus TMK


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Dominic Shiells

 2015/1/23 18:23Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Deltadom--

I have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.


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Todd

 2015/1/23 21:31Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

A few nights ago, we saw a woman healed of lumps in her breasts. She had never, to my knowledge, visited our church before, and her friend had to prompt her to come forward for prayer. The healing was instantaneous, as she left and examined herself right after prayer. We all, on the surface, know that God's love and compassion toward this woman motivated Him to heal her. This was the obvious motive.

The other interesting thing about this woman is that she was raised hearing the gospel, but has never surrendered her life to the Lord. She has now experienced the love and power of God toward her, and it has really impacted her. She now has to deal with God's love toward her and decide how she is going to respond to it. The not so obvious, but possibly the deeper and more compelling motive, is that she come to a point of surrendering her life to the Lord and being born again.

Ulterior is not necessarily indicative of evil intent. It can just as easily be indicative of a deeper and more compelling motive.


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Travis

 2015/1/24 9:23Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Travis- I don't disagree with what you are saying.

I guess my question should have been "what was the PRIMARY or INITIAL motive for healings, etc.

To me it seems clear in the great majority of cases in scripture the primary or initial motive was necessity. A couple of exceptions may be Jesus walking on water or the raising of Lazarus.

I guess my point in bringing this whole thing up is that I think necessity should be OUR primary motive as well. In your example the lady had lumps that needed to be gone. That was the primary or initial reason you all prayed for her; at least I would hope that was the reason.


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Todd

 2015/1/24 10:34Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

John 20
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jesus did his miracles to prove that he was Jesus is the Messiah , he is God in human flesh


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Dominic Shiells

 2015/1/24 13:14Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I guess my question should have been "what was the PRIMARY or INITIAL motive for healings, etc.



I'd say it was to demonstrate the Love of God in the world. The rain falls on the RIGHTEOUS AND UNRIGHTEOUS.

I'd say that was the Son's primary motive. To demonstrate the will of the Father. That He loves the world.

Healing of the ten lepers. Etc. Etc.

I could give a list of scriptures but John 3:16 is sufficient.

 2015/1/24 15:00
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Exactly lovemeekhope. If Travis and others with him didn't give two licks about the lady who needed healed, they wouldn't have prayed for her to be healed.

We pray for healing etc because we love Jesus and we are His body.


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Todd

 2015/1/24 16:42Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Deltafom wrote: "Jesus did his miracles to prove that he was Jesus is the Messiah , he is God in the flesh."

Jesus didn't do miracles because he was God (although I certainly agree that He is).

He did them because He was filled with the Spirit and that is what God wanted Him to do.


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Todd

 2015/1/24 16:46Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Todd: 1 Cor. 13 gives what should be our motivation. The gifts of the Spirit, miracles, etc. are all to be motivated by the selfless, self-sacrificing, compassionate love of the Father. We need to pray that we have the heart and mind of God and are motivated by His Holy Spirit so that we act out of His motives.

I agree. If I did not give two licks about the lady, I would be a very sorry excuse for a representative of Christ for sure.


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Travis

 2015/1/24 17:28Profile





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