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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Most Awful Bible Story: Judges 19-21

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deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

It is amazing that we look at scripture we look at through 21st century eyes and not in its original context,
The difference is that christian men are saved by grace and those that dont know Christ are destined for a different place.
Eternity should always be in focus when we view these scriptures.
We look at our history and if it was written by the same person who wrote the book of Judges, we would be alot worse.

Genesis 18:25
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

We look at scripture and think that a righteous god does not do right

is 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

It is the same thing when we look at the caanaties and say why did God tell Joshua to destroy them, yet as Americans or English people we are appauled at ISIS, God gave them 400 years of grace and we would do the same thing.

We look at people like Lot or say this Levite to them it was a life and death situation and if you understood the laws at the time it could have been plausable.

It is somehow with our 21st century gospel given christian heritage that we have we take for granted with damaging effects from the renaissance where we placed our reason higher than Gods eternal hindsight.

If someone is a evolutionist there is no grounding for evil or good. As simply survival of the fittest, a lion killing a gazelle is simply a fact of life in the natural kingdom or if a whole world was full of cannabals only as a christian you can say that is wrong because god is transendant.

Nicest should not be our judge, what should be our judge should be is someone saved, do they know Jesus, Are they saved from Hell and believe in the cross and the resurection and that Jesus is God and in the hypostatic union.

Death on the evolutionary point of view is just simply molucules mixed in a different order.

It is amazing we forget our own history if we were in say Moses postion or say Israels position it is just for the grace of God we would act alot more terribly.

We only have a snapshot of what these people went through in there life but that snapshot was important to God.

As when we all face God our history is not going to be that great as men may write history books but everyone has to appear before God on judgement day


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Dominic Shiells

 2015/1/23 18:07Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: Not as Awful...but awful nonetheless




Genesis 38:6-30

Gen 38:6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
Gen 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
Gen 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Gen 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
Gen 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
Gen 38:11 Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father's house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house.
Gen 38:12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.
Gen 38:13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep.
Gen 38:14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.
Gen 38:15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.
Gen 38:16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
Gen 38:17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?
Gen 38:18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.
Gen 38:19 And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.
Gen 38:20 And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not.
Gen 38:21 Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place.
Gen 38:22 And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place.
Gen 38:23 And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.
Gen 38:24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
Gen 38:25 When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff.
Gen 38:26 And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.
Gen 38:27 And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb.
Gen 38:28 And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.
Gen 38:29 And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.
Gen 38:30 And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.

 2015/1/24 4:56Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

This Levite sends parts of the woman's body to the tribes, hoping to galvanize a response to the awful thing committed to her/him among the sons of Benjamin. And he was not disappointed. A call to arms was issued.

As I consider this incident in light of OT law I find it disturbing on different levels.

Under the OT law no one was allowed to give their women to harlotry or make them available for sex other then their spouse. The law was severe - death for both participants unless the woman was a slave.

This Levite forced this woman upon these lewd men. He was an accomplice and facilitator. But then he turns around and asks for justice for the men who ravished and killed his wife.

So inconsistent.

Romans 2:1-5 (NASB) has something to say about this principle:

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.

3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.


It can be argued this is NT but I do not find in the OT that this principle was not operative under the OT law, but that it was an underlying one that shored up the law. Never do we read where God was partial in meting out judgement based upon a person's position in society. What follows in this story illustrates the justice of God against sin.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2015/1/26 12:45Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

In Judges 20:1-11 one reads how Israel responded quickly to the report sent to them by this levite. I think their response is a powerful lesson - they were horrified and went to deal with it.

They mobilized their armies then sent a delegation to Benjamin asking them to release to them these offenders. "But the sons of Benjamin would not listen to the voice of their brothers." (v.13)

I find the Israelites response commendable. They sent a delegation to Benjamin, giving them a chance to rid their community of ruthless ruffians before proceeding to actual fighting.

This incident displays a reaction normal to humans who upon hearing reports of evil doing will either shrug their shoulders or get on the warpath to rid society of this evil.

How do we respond to reports of sin? Granted we are not going on the 'warpath' to rid society of evil, but do we work to bring about repentance, correction of wrong done? And what is the reaction of the other side who work to protect the offenders? and how do concerned people respond to that?

Hmmm...human nature has not changed any, has it?


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Sandra Miller

 2015/1/27 14:44Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

After the Benjaminites refused to release these offenders Israel went on the warpath against Benjamin. I find this so troubling. Did they not know that this will merely embolden them to worse crimes? I also wonder how did they think they could militarily withstand a standing army of 400,000 soldiers! Sure they had 26,000... Amazed how some folks think, their rationale.

In any case Israel went up, fought Benjamin and they lost horribly - 22,000 men! Upon the word of the LORD they went up the next day and fought Benjamin only to lose 18,000 more men! Now the people were desperate. They were doing the will of God and losing badly. Makes no sense.

The Israelites got desperate, very desperate - losing 40,000 men is tragic. They prayed, fasted, wept, sacrificed to the LORD and inquired of Him about the future. God said go up and I will deliver them into your hand. And He did.

What ensued was equally tragic. Even though the Benjaminite tribe was almost totally obliterated, the people sat down and wept. They were grieved. Victory was tinged with intense grief.

As I consider this incident I see powerful lessons here. When you go fight against sin, its possessors, its promoters there will be war and there will be causalities on both sides.

There will be causalities on both sides: the offenders and those who want to rid society of sin and its industry. It can get "bloody" and does. (Metaphorically speaking.) Fighting sin is hard, even on those who walk with the LORD. They can and do get hurt. No clear cut battle with no wounds. Sounds like life, here and now.


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Sandra Miller

 2015/1/28 16:26Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

I was about to post my final insight to this story when my mind was drawn to the incident in chapter 21:8-11:

8 And they said, “What one is there of the tribes of Israel who did not come up to the LORD at Mizpah?” And behold, no one had come to the camp from Jabesh-gilead to the assembly.

9 For when the people were numbered, behold, not one of the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead was there.

10 And the congregation sent 12,000 of the valiant warriors there, and commanded them, saying, “Go and strike the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the little ones.

11 “This is the thing that you shall do: you shall utterly destroy every man and every woman who has lain with a man.”

I see here people who did not take a stand against perversion: they stayed home, did not want to get involved in a fight (I assume). Or, maybe they did not view this sin as calling for such drastic measures in eliminating it from the congregation. Whatever their reason for staying away, the rest of the people considered this a serious offence.

Here we see the diligence of Israel in ridding their country of homosexuality/immorality. They went after this town, killed all but virgins. - must have been a large settlement of people if they found 400 young girls.

And...this was all in the will of God. Sounds quite harsh does it not? I think so until I realize how detestable, disgusting immorality, homosexuality is in the sight of God. Romans 1:32 informs us that God has not relented his hatred, his disgust on this issue at all. His disgust is not confined to the practitioners of this sin but also against those that approve of it.

32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Are we as vocal, as active in weeding out these people from our midst? Do we hate this sin like God does? Granted we will not kill offenders, but those in our assemblies, do we tolerate their ministry, their service in the church? They do contaminate the assembly with their niceness, politeness...

How about the music, the movies we are entertained by...do we allow ourselves to be entertained by these people? If so, do we not learn to 'love'/tolerate these people in a way whereby we accommodate their sin? Is this not a way the devil will use to get us calloused to this sin - the Word says if you do give approval you are worthy of death.

The penalty has not changed - the timing of its execution just has.


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Sandra Miller

 2015/1/30 10:00Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I am curious where you get the idea that it was Gods will that all the men, non virgin women and boys in Jabesh-Gilead should be slaughtered. I do not see an indication of that in Ch 21 but I may have missed it.


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Todd

 2015/1/30 14:11Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

I read in chapter 20 where God was very much involved in the execution of this judgement against sin. As I would understand from the events detailed in chapter 20 I see the events in chapter 21 a continuation of the same. Would you understand them to have been in disobedience in pursuing judgement against Jabesh-Gilead because they did not help them in their fight against Benjamin?

I do not know why they saved the virgin girls from that community. Many times when Israel went to war all would be killed. Not having scripture to back me up I could guess this was what the LORD led them to do since they were communing with the LORD about this entire situation.

OT law mandated death for those involved in adultery, homosexual acts, beastality. To give approval of this by abstaining from assisting in this act of obedience could be problematic, I would think.

What do you say?


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Sandra Miller

 2015/1/30 14:42Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I don't know whether it carried over into Ch 21 or not. I question that they were hearing God's voice in Ch 20. It sounds like they were flipping a coin. How reliable were the priests who were at best using the Urim and Thummin? Its not as if they were truly devoted to God.


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Todd

 2015/1/30 17:31Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

I will need to check out the use of the Urim and Thummin. It had been my understanding it was an accepted method of determining God's will. Will look that up, later.

Yes, these people had fallen into a state of "doing what seemed right in their own eyes." And that mindset leads to disaster as this story proved.


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Sandra Miller

 2015/2/2 10:50Profile





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