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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : We Must Get Ourselves A New Heart and New Spirit

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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 708
San Diego

 Re: perspective shift

In your mind as you think on these things, is God rooting out sinners to punish them, or is He working on His plan to save them?

If He is working to save them, it is because there are laws in place that force Him to make a plan. He cannot just lay the law aside because He loves someone- that is not how salvation works.

For the current American president so many laws are in the way he just ignores and goes around them. He spends money that he just prints up, he releases enemy combatants without their repentance, he wants school and medical care to be free- he is popular and loved among the dependent classes, giving away the store! But it is not producing social stability and a sense of justice. I have never seen so much confusion, class and race hatred, and general anger in the public square as I have since he began to implement wealth redistribution, another name for lawlessness.

God is nothing like this. He is the author of the laws of justice, He is the wise instructor in how sowing and reaping works, He is the One Who calls out to men, "Come, let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you will be white as snow!" When He says "reason" He presumes that all are on the same page in the discussion. His ways are high, but they are not unreasonable!

No man who is condemed to Hell will wonder what he did to incur God's judgement, further- he will see that not only did his own sinful choices bring the condemnation, but as he bows his knee to Jesus Christ there will be a flood of revelation that God had worked tirelessly to spare him this fate. He will know that God does not send him to hell, his own rebellion does. He will not whimper out some excuse that he was born with a sinful nature, will he?

Tom Cameron

 2015/1/9 21:01Profile

Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


tod I don't think those two things are exactly the same thing ,im not sure if anyone one would propound that way ,

But adams oridgnal sin caused the judgment of god to fall upon him and his seed and rest of the world ,and since that time ,we are born with the effects that original sin caused by bringing gods curse ,and part of that is a sin full nature ,many people would call the flesh, but having said that it is not that same as total depravity ,which is the degree in which this sinfull nature or flesh has its control of humans and beasts

I agree oracio

 2015/1/9 21:07Profile

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri


Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 5:15-20
(15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
(17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The contrast between the first Adam whose disobedience brought the condemnation of sin and God's judgment upon all men and the second Adam, Christ, who brought to all men the gift of righteousness is a fantastic revelation to receive from the word of God. Because of the one original offense of the one original man, God's judgement came upon all men to condemnation. We were, as Eph. 2:3 says, the children of wrath by nature of being carnal man, not by our own individual offense. But by the obedience of one, Christ, we can receive a new nature. We can be made righteous.

Because of Adam's transgression, we all, as the human race, came under the curse of sin and were born, as David said, in sin and iniquity. Because of this, there is not a single person who does not have to be regenerated in spirit (reborn). The only exception to this need for regeneration are those to which the condemnation of the law has not taken effect. We typically think of these people as children who are not yet of age to understand that they are sinners, but we could also include, I think, those adults who are mentally incapable of this recognition as well.

Paul says in the first part of Romans that when men make laws regarding right and wrong, even when they do not base these laws upon God's precepts, they show by their very behavior that they understand that there is a God to whom they are accountable. Otherwise they would not recognize that some actions are right and others are wrong. Paul says that these people will stand before God without excuse.

As to the visiting of the father's iniquities upon the children, I would like to make a couple of observations. There are two scriptures that seem to be very contradictory. In Exodus 34, we find God described as one who does visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to even the fourth generation. Yet in Deuteronomy and 1 and 2 Kings we find that it was against the law to punish the children for their father's sin. We must understand, I think, that the verses the speak of God not punishing the children for the sins of the father is a commentary on the law. It does not give us commentary on the sin of Adam bringing death spiritually and physically to all men. Rather it speaks of the punishment that was meted out under the law for transgressions of the law. Under the law, if a man committed murder, his son was not put to death because the father committed murder. This was about physical punishments meted out under the law.


 2015/1/10 8:58Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5584


Original Sin and Depravity
Lecture by Steve Gregg

I. Original sin: What is it?

A. Term not found in scripture—Primarily based upon Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12 & 1 Cor.15:21-22

“Death spread to all men because all men sinned. Does this mean that all have sinned in their personal lives (which is apparently the meaning of the words in 3:23) or that all sinned in Adam’s primal sin? In support of the latter it might be argued that human beings are mortal before they commit any sin, so that the mortality of the race is the result of the original racial sin…The construction, with the underlying thought, is paralleled in 2 Corinthians 5:14: ‘one has died for all; therefore all have died’…It is not simply because Adam is the ancestor of mankind that all are said to have sinned lr» his sin (otherwise it might be argued that because Abraham believed God all his descendants were necessarily involved in is belief); it is because Adam is mankind.” (F.F. Bruce, The Epistle of Paul to the Romans: An Introduction and Commentary, pp.122f

“Death is visited on all men today, not just because all men have sinned like Adam, but because all men sinned in Adam…the reason why [people prior to the law] died is not because they deliberately transgressed
like Adam and died for their transgression, but because they and the whole of humanity (Christ only excepted) were included in Adam, the head of the human race.” (John R.W. Stott, Men Made New: An Exposition of Romans 5-8, p.25)

B. Definition of term not agreed upon among theologians. Does it mean:

1. Inherited sinful nature [taught by Irenaeus (170 AD), along with modern Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican]

2. Inherited guilt of Adam’s sin [taught by Augustine (354-430 AD) & Reformers (Luther, Calvin)]

3. Neither [taught by Pelagius (354-418 AD) Condemned as heretic by Western Church, vindicated by Eastern Church]

C. Views of the Early Church

”Many Fathers found it difficult to accept any concept of what we would call inherited guilt. To most of them disobedience was a personal act, repeated in each individual but not directly inherited from Adam in a way that would make us responsible for his disobedience.” (Gerald Bray, Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: Romans, p.130)

“Those who oppose the idea of the transmission of sin try to attack it as follows: “If Adam’s sin harmed even those who were not sinners, then Christ’s righteousness must help even those who are not believers. For Paul says that people are saved through Christ in the same way or to an even greater degree than they had previously perished through Adam.” Secondly, they say: “If baptism washes away that ancient sin, those who are born of two baptized parents should not have that sin, for they could not have passed on to their children what they did not possess themselves. Besides, if the soul does not exist by transmission, but only the flesh, then only the flesh carries the transmission of sin and it alone deserves punishment.” Declaring it to be unjust that a soul which is born today, not from the lump of Adam, bears so ancient a sin belonging to another, these people say that on no account should it be accepted that God, who forgives a man his own sins, imputes to him the sins of someone else.” (Pelagius, Commentary on Romans)

“[The writings of the earliest Greek fathers] show a manifest affinity with the later teachings of Pelagius rather than with those of Augustine. In a measure, it may be said, they prepared the way for Pelagianism…Adam could sin and did sin, and thus came under the power of Satan, death, and sinful corruption. This physical corruption was propagated in the human race, but is not itself sin and did not involve mankind in guilt. There is no original sin in the strict sense of the word. They do not deny the solidarity of the human race, but admit its physical connection with Adam. This connection, however, relates only to the corporeal and sensuous nature, which is propagated from father to son, and not to the higher and rational side of human nature, which is in every case a direct creation of God. It exerts no immediate effect on the will, but affects this only mediately through the intellect. Sin always originates in the free choice of man, and is the result of weakness and ignorance. Consequently infants cannot be regarded as guilty, for they have inherited only a physical corruption.
It should be noted, however, that there were some departures from this general view. Origen admitting that a certain hereditary pollution attached to every one at birth, found the explanation for it in a pre-natal or pre-temporal fall of the soul, and came very close to a doctrine of original sin. And Gregory of Nyssa came even nearer to teaching this doctrine. But even the great Athanasius and Chrysostom scrupulously avoided it.” (Louis Berkhof, The History of Christian Doctrines, p.128)

D. Total depravity? (Genesis 6:5/ Jeremiah 13:23; 17:9/John 8:44 / Romans 7:18 )

II. Ramifications:

A. Infant guilt and damnation

“Everyone, even little children, have broken God’s covenant, not indeed in virtue of any personal action but in virtue of mankind’s common origin in that single ancestor in whom all have sinned.” (Augustine, The City of God 16:27)

B. All men born haters of God—Romans 1:30

C. Men incapacitated even from believing and repenting—“Dead in sin” (Col.2:12) see also John 6:44; 10:26; Rom.3:10-12; 8:7-8

D. Did Jesus inherit the sinful nature? If not, how was He tempted like we are?

“If the souls of all men are derived from that one which was breathed into the first man … either the soul of Christ was not derived from that one, since he had no sin of any kind or, if his soul was derived from that first one, he purified it in taking it for himself, so that he might be born of the virgin and might come to us without any trace of sin, either committed or transmitted.” (Augustine, Letter 164)

III. Examination of relevant Scripture:

A. “Sinful nature”

1. There is evidence in scripture and experience of sin in our nature
“Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child…” (Prov.22:15)
“Slaves of sin” (John 8:34; Rom.6:16-23)
“Sin in my members” (Rom.7:14-25)
“By nature children of wrath” (Eph.2:2-3)
The state of the pagans (Eph.4:17-19)

2. There is very little in scripture that speaks of inheriting this nature at birth
Seth born “in the likeness and image of [fallen] Adam” (Genesis 5:1-3)
“the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Genesis 8:21)
“in sin my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5)
“The wicked are estranged from the womb…speaking lies” (Psalm 58:3)

B. Adam’s guilt and ours

1. There is evidence in scripture that God does not blame children for their fathers’ sins
Deut.24:16/ Jer.31:29-30/ Ezekiel 18:20/ 1 Kings 14:12-13

2. There is such a thing as suffering consequences of a father’s sins, without the guilt
Exodus 20:4-5/ Egypt’s firstborn/ Canaanite infants/ 2 Samuel 12:14

3. There is no scripture that specifically affirms inherited guilt (Psalm 51:5? Rom.5:12?)

IV. How did Adam bring death upon all people?

A. Man created a mortal , potentially immortal, species (1 Timothy 6:16/ Rom.2:6-7/ Gen.3:22)

B. Access to the tree of life was interrupted due to Adam’s sin, consigning the race to mortality
Question: Is individual death the penalty for personal sin, or is it the natural consequence of being born without access to the tree of life?

C. Birthright of a relationship with God interrupted

D. Human self-centered (animal-like) instincts cannot be overcome without God

1. “Dead” or “Sick”? (Mark 2:17/ Ps.41:4/Isa. 1:5-6; 6:10; 57:17-19/ Jer.3:22/1 Pet. 2:24-25)

2. Flesh is said to be “weak” (Matt.26:41/ Rom.8:3-8)

3. “Sin” means “Missing the mark” or “falling short of the glory of God” (Rom.3:23)

4. Total depravity (where it exists) is not a birth condition but an acquired condition—an advanced stage of the disease (Rom.1:21-22, 24, 26, 28; Prov.29:1; Jer.13:23; Matt.13:15; Eph.4:17-19)


 2015/1/10 9:12Profile

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