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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : We Must Get Ourselves A New Heart and New Spirit

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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

sounds rights travis ....to me


The way I see it is paul was also teaching we were in adam when he sinned and as the bible says ,because all sinned ,rather then saying all will sin or saying or are sinning paul said death spread to all men because all sinned . So death physical death is seen as evidence that we sinned past tense ,,the fact that a baby can die shows that he in fact has sinned past tense , for a baby to be able to receive a physical death in the womb shows it cant be a judgment of death penalty by his own sin ,but one before him ,and the bible clearly states that its was adams sin by which this death spread to all.

We also know that is says in adam all died but in Christ all will be made alive ,,some to everlasting life an some to everlasting damnation . Weather it was because we were in adams loins and have a close connection ,a union to him and all other men ,or weather god new we would all do the same as adam because of the special creative union we have with adam and one another ,or both, we know it says what it says ,and that is speaking not directly of spiritual life or death but physical resurrection life , hence in Christ all will be made alive we know for sure all will not be made spiritual alive ,but all will be resurrected .

but total depravity is slightly another angle but if we we equate spiritual death with physical death . Then we have as much power to come to Christ for spiritual life as Lazarus had to undo is grave cloths and met Jesus at the stone door ,and that's what death means to me ,dead period ,,because the light that was in me was darkness ,how great was that darkness

 2015/1/8 19:05Profile
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 708
San Diego

 Re:

The Ezekiel 18 passage is important here, because Paul must have been intimately aware of it when he drafted the book of Romans. The teaching there is clear that a man and his father are not connected in their sin and not connected in righteousness. Each is accountable for his own response to the enlightening law of God.

By saying that he was once alive before the law came to kill him, Paul discounts any pre-existing sin within himself. Also, when he says that by one man (Adam) all die and by one man (Jesus) all men live, it is only logical that there must be participation. The commitment to serve Christ with repentance and a genuine confession is the participation with Christ, and it is the willful disobedience on the other end that participates with Adam.

God didn't create us to sin, He created us for friendship. His dilemma was just that we had to be free to love Him or reject Him in order for the love choice to be real. He does not want or need puppets.

We do not need a sinful nature. We are fully capable of concocting plenty of our own sin just with the lusts we learn to feed at a very early age!

Think about God forgiving you for the sinful nature with which He created you. Would this not be an insult to law, justice, and reason? Sin would be two completely different entities, one based on moral choices, and one based on physical being. Jesus never taught anything like that!


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Tom Cameron

 2015/1/8 20:28Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

i think the opposite is true of paul he was saying just that, that he had a sinful nature that why he called it the natural man and said that he cant receive the things of the spirit,,the natural born human is not able to receive the things of the spirit, I feel it is a spit in the face of the holiness of Christ who had no sin him his nature ,due to the fact that his maternal father was not from the linage of adam but from god he was the new creation the new adam in which the new linage was refreshed ,we become part of that when we partake of the devine nature ,natural man and the carnal man has not that new nature ,neither does the unborn in that linage .Adam had it but lost it for all after him ,that is why the new birth is expedient

If death spread to the unborn in the womb it can be only for the same reason the bible stats it, and that is because all sinned passed tence .

The bible gives us no other reason for the death penalty to be upon everyone's babys and the unborn alike .

Bringing up the idea to questions gods reasons an Justus like forgiving us for our sinful nature ,doesn't change anything ,we all need to be sinless like Christ , through the blood of the new covenant and Christ we all need to be changed into his image of absolute perfection ,,baby's and the unborn will need the divine holiness of the second adam ,the fallen image of the man of dust [adam] will not be excepted ,, no one will excepted on the basis of them being sinless enough in them self's to enter into the the holiest of holy,only through Christ righteousness and the sprinkling of the blood will we be excepted

.. The bible even calls the children of the unbelievers in the new covenant as unclean ,,,if children could possibly be sinless the bible would not call them unclean

 2015/1/8 22:05Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

I think the fact that we are all born in to a fallen world show the the result of adams guilt and and the judgment and punishment that was to fall upon adam falls upon us all ,and so we all suffer the punishment to some degree that was due to adams sin ,even tho we haven't sinned after the likeness of his transgression

 2015/1/8 22:36Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I think the fact that we are all born in to a fallen world show the the result of adams guilt and and the judgment and punishment that was to fall upon adam falls upon us all ,and so we all suffer the punishment to some degree that was due to adams sin ,even tho we haven't sinned after the likeness of his transgression.



Amen brothagary, I agree with all your posts in this thread. Indeed, the fact that all babies are born with physical depravity and the curse of death clearly shows that there is a connection between us and Adam's sin. The objection comes up, "God cannot punish babies or people for Adam's sin." I ask then, why are they punished with physical depravity and death? Why are some born with various types of serious deformities or illnesses and some die from illnesses as babies? Again, the answer according to God's Word is that there is a connection with Adam's sin.

I know that accepting that we are born as sinners with guilt inherited through Adam(as Romans 5:18-19 plainly declares) can be a very humbling thing for us to do. When it comes to certain hard truths revealed in God's Word we inevitably come to a place where we either humbly receive those truths as a child or reject them due to not fully understanding the reasonability of them. It is during these times that we must heed the admonition of Proverbs 3:5 not to lean on our understanding. Let's face it, there are some things of which we may never fully understand the reasonability this side of heaven.

It is in that area where I believe Finney erred on certain points. I believe he allowed his experience as a lawyer and his intellectual brilliance to hinder him from humbly accepting certain hard, yet plain truths of Scripture. He went to certain extremes in trying to find a precise, logical explanation for every single point of theology. And many have follow suit, and some have crossed into outright Pelagian heresy after starting with Finney's teachings.

I agree with the concept of endeavoring to destroy all excuses or objections for rejecting the gospel, but not at the expense of clear or plain truths of God's Word.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/1/9 12:39Profile









 Re:

Oracio, I really enjoyed your scriptural defense for 'if we repent, God will give us a New Heart/Spirit'.

Great expository teaching. Keep up the good work in the word. I feel blessed to have read your teaching/discussing on this topic.

 2015/1/9 13:00









 Re:

Ezek: 36:25-27 "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Here is an exact Charles Finney quote from The Promise of The Spirit published by Bethany House 1980. Lecture 11. THE PROMISES--No. 1, page 135.

"We never keep the commandments, only as we take hold of the promises. By this I mean that grace alone enables us from the heart, to obey the commandments of God. It is, therefore, only when we lay hold of the promise, by faith, and receive its fulfillment in ourselves, that we really, in heart, obey the commandments of God. For example we never love the Lord our God, according to the first great commandment, only as we lay hold on, and receive the fulfillment of some such promise as this: "I will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

The grace of the gospel offers you, with every command, the strength to obey, and work in you the very thing commanded. Every command implies a corresponding promise, that is, if we are required to do anything by Christ, the very requirement is an implied promise or offer of all the aid we need to make it possible for us to perform it. Indeed, the command in itself is an implied GIFT of all needed help. The command itself implies the ability to obey it. Every command of God implies this in the strongest manner. It should be remembered that God is perfect in both love and wisdom: therefore He cannot be so unjust as to demand something from us that is impossible for us to perform. THE GRACE OF GOD TURNS THE REQUIREMENTS INTO A PROMISE FROM GOD.

The grace of God now shows you that there is an entirely new position for you to take. You must take a possible position of simple childlike trust in what God has already accomplished, day by day, to every command His voice speaks to you through the Spirit. You must take a possible position of simple childlike dependence on and experience of His all-sufficient grace, day by day, for every command He gives.

 2015/1/9 13:15
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

LoveMeekHope, thanks for the encouragement!

tuc, I say a hearty amen to that piece from Finney!


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Oracio

 2015/1/9 13:49Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5584
NC, USA

 Re:

But having a sinful nature is not the same thing as being born guilty with "original sin." When Adam and Eve blew it (even though they had no sinful nature---gasp!!!) sin entered the world and thereafter people were born with a "bent" toward sinning. That's why every little kid starts sinning around 3 years old.


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Todd

 2015/1/9 17:17Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
But having a sinful nature is not the same thing as being born guilty with "original sin." When Adam and Eve blew it (even though they had no sinful nature---gasp!!!) sin entered the world and thereafter people were born with a "bent" toward sinning. That's why every little kid starts sinning around 3 years old.


But is not being born with a sinful nature or bent toward sinning or depraved nature a judgment from God? Is not death a judgment from God? If so, how can there be a judgment like that if there is no guilt involved? A judgment or punishment like that has to involve guilt if you take the words in Ezekiel 18 literally.

Also, how is it known that kids start sinning at around 3 years old? Even as early as 6 months old there can be a tendency in babies to get angry if you try to get them to share their toys with other babies (I know they can't be held fully accountable for things like that at that age because they're just babies). And don't get me wrong, I know they are very adorable and I don't want to take away from the image of God that is still there. But I believe Scripture teaches that sin and a sinful nature are realities even at conception. We are judged and punished with a depraved nature and death as a result of Adam's sin.

As far the age of accountability question, I'd rather not get into that one because that's a tough for me to be dogmatic about at this time. I'd probably have to do more prayerful study on it.


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Oracio

 2015/1/9 17:46Profile





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