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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : We Must Get Ourselves A New Heart and New Spirit

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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5584
NC, USA

 Re:

Isn't it really a distinction without a difference? Even if man is not a victim of "original sin" at birth(i tend to believe this is not the case), all men sin at some point very early on.


_________________
Todd

 2015/1/7 6:17Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 708
San Diego

 Re:

The soul that sinneth will die.

Or the serpent's famous quote in the garden of Eden, brutally paraphrased, "Die? He told you that? Nah, you're not gonna die... sort of..."

The law of sin and death is that while they go together, sin precedes death. Adam and Eve died when they ate the forbidden fruit, but the physical manifestation of that came a bit later. Eve's death is not recorded, but Adam lived to be 930 years old.

The serpent lied. He still does.


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Tom Cameron

 2015/1/7 11:04Profile









 Re:

Lets see what God said.

Gen 2:17. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Something had radically changed in them. Look at how they acted toward God.

This was a "death" to what what they had before they ate.

 2015/1/7 15:22
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

If being birthed a human being and we can get a new heart, why do we need to be re-birthed?

There is only one that can give a new heart to believers, that is God Himself, when, where and how, it is His power that gives us new birth and new life in Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ is the Incoruptable Seed that the Father gives rebirth to us and calls us sons of God. "Ye must be born again".

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2015/1/8 6:53Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

The new heart and new spirit Ezekiel 18 speaks of is equivalent to the new birth as taught in the New Testament.

So you could also paraphrase Ezekiel as saying, "Be born again!"

We know that we cannot make ourselves born again in the least bit. Yet God commands us to be born again. It may seem like a paradox at the surface but it really isn't.

What God commands He enables.

I want to bring up the word command here in light of certain posts. Webster's defines it as follows:

"to give (someone) an order : to tell (someone) to do something in a forceful and often official way

: to have authority and control over (a group of people, such as soldiers)

: to deserve or be able to get or receive (something)"



I think it is very close to the word demand. Here's the definition of that word:

"a forceful statement in which you say that something must be done or given to you

"something claimed as due <a list of demands>"



God does indeed COMMAND and DEMAND obedience because He has a right to do so as our Maker and Lord.


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Oracio

 2015/1/8 11:13Profile









 What God commands He enables.


What God commands He enables.

That is what I have been saying all along.

Grace enables us and and fulfills the command.

Grace supplies us with the ability that the Law or we could never do.



 2015/1/8 13:09
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re: What God commands He enables.

Quote:
What God commands He enables.

That is what I have been saying all along.

Grace enables us and and fulfills the command.

Grace supplies us with the ability that the Law or we could never do.


Yes, but we cannot deny the truth of God's commands or demands upon us.

Both are undeniable truths of God's Word. When we emphasize one of those truths to the exclusion of the other we err gravely in our presentation of the gospel message.

In emphasizing grace to the exclusion of man's accountability and responsibility we can end up either with heretical hyper Calvinism or heretical cheap grace.

On the other hand in emphasizing man's supposed ability to change himself and obey God without His grace you end up with heretical Pelagianism (the belief that obedience to God's law is possible without God's grace).


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Oracio

 2015/1/8 13:32Profile









 Re: Born again

You said

"We know that we cannot make ourselves born again in the least bit."

I agree 100% with this.

So here is the real question to ponder.

When were we born again and why?

How did this happen, and what was our part in it - if any?

Lets get some remarks about this.

 2015/1/8 14:31
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 692
Texas

 Re:

For a "when" consideration - "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

We are included in Christ when we hear and believe.


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2015/1/8 15:39Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Paul the Apostle said, "I was alive without the law once, but when the law came, sin revived and I died." Romans 7

He also said, "Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Romans 5

"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Cor.

It appears to me that sin is universal and original due to Adam's sin. Paul says that death passed upon all men, for all have sinned. The word man in this context means human being. This death includes sickness, death in process, and spiritual death and the resulting judgment. Yet Paul says that there was a time that he was alive without the law, and that there was a time before the law when sin was in the world, but the spiritual consequences were not being imputed though the physical consequences were apparent.

I think that a man becomes spiritually accountable for his sinful condition when he is aware that he is violating the law of God. At what age this occurs is arguable, and I think only God and the man can make that determination. I knew I was a sinner at age 8 and came to the Lord in repentance and was born again. But the behavior of a child at a very early age ought to be evidence that all is not well spiritually with that child...that is, that that child has been born unregenerate or in sin.

So there is, I think, a distinction between physical and spiritual effects of sin to some degree. But I don't see how we can say anything other than that a man is born into depravity, rather than that a man becomes depraved due to his own actions. Due to the sin of one man, all are made sinners....but due to the obedience of one man all who will can be made righteous.

On another note, I think the "God's Part/ Our Part" discussion might be a bit of talking past one another. I cannot have faith or ability to repent unless God grants me that ability, while at the same time I must make the decision that I am going to repent and turn to God. I provide the impetus, He provides the ability.


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Travis

 2015/1/8 15:47Profile





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