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Renoncer
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Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 If Islam is true and if Christianity is true

Dear beloved, please forward this to your Muslim friends. May God open the eyes of their understanding so that they might be saved from the wrath to come.

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In the 1st century, Jesus told his followers that God sent His Son into the world to make atonement for sin, so that He might forgive our sins. In the 7th century, Mohammed told his followers that God can simply absolve sin without making atonement for sin. So, has the debt of sin been paid? Has evil been purged? Does the Judge of the universe let moral crimes go unpunished, or does He punish evil? How can God be both just and merciful?

If Islam is true, it means that God has done nothing to purify us from sin, that God has done nothing to actually deal with sin and correct the wrong. If Islam is true, the balance of justice will remain unsettled and God is okay with it, thus calling into question His own moral character.

But, if Christianity is true, it means that God has done what is necessary to purify us from sin, that God has done the ultimate thing to deal with sin and completely eradicate evil. If Christianity is true, the balance of justice has been corrected and God has upheld His moral standards by purging evil and paying the moral debt of the world, thus vindicating His own righteous character.

The truth is that everything in this world is done before God. Furthermore, because man is a moral creature, he is accountable to God for everything that he does, from his religious service unto God to his treatment of other human beings. A sin against humanity is an offense against God, and God will bring it into light on the final Day of Judgment. The question is, when that Day comes, will you stand in your sins before the sight of a Holy God, or will you stand faultless before the throne, now that your sins have been wiped away by the blood of Jesus, and now that your moral debt has been paid by the ultimate price, the Life of Jesus Christ, the Son of God? Now is the time to settle the accounts, while God is still calling you to run to Christ for salvation, who can purify you by His blood, pay the debt by His sacrifice, and make you righteous by His resurrected glory. You must simply cast yourself upon Him by faith in Jesus Christ.

The truth is that, at the time appointed by God, Jesus Christ came to purchase our salvation. Now, hundreds of years later, Islam says, “What payment? What price? What debt? What Savior? We know none of these things!” Do you understand how Islam robs you of your only hope? It takes away the most important thing that God has done to reconcile sinners to Himself. It takes away the most amazing display of God’s love towards human beings, and relegates God’s salvation to some mysterious act of blind fate, somewhere in the darkness. But, the truth is that it leaves you with nothing but your sins and you still have to give an account to God. Without Christ’s death and resurrection, God has told you that you will never inherit eternal life. That is crystal clear. Let us honor God by acknowledging what He has done for our salvation. Let us proclaim that what we could not do because of our weakness and because of our sins, GOD HAS DONE. He has paid the ultimate price. He has corrected the wrongs. He has restored the balance of justice in the same act by which He displayed His love and mercy. Hallelujah!

My moral debt towards God has been paid in full. How about you? Are you still in your sins?

 2014/11/24 7:58Profile









 Re: If Islam is true and if Christianity is true

Yes! This is GREAT news!!!

But there is more.

How would you feel if you turned on Television and heard on the news that the President of the United States had just issued a blanket pardon to all of America's prison inmates? Would you have a problem with all these prisoners being completely forgiven and released without any restrictions? How would you feel if a few of them moved into your neighborhood? The problem would be that these people would remain unchanged and many would just continue in a life of crime. They would need to be returned to jail or continually forgiven every day since there would were still the same person with the same nature as before. Forgiveness and pardon for their crimes is not the solution because forgiveness could never change who they really were deep down inside. The only possible cure would be a change of their nature. They need a complete change the very essence and core of who they really where.

It is impossible to overstate the seriousness of man's condition as a human being apart from God. They bible refers to sinners as, judged, condemned, guilty, sons of the devil, dead in trespasses and sins, lovers of darkness, deeds are evil, under the wrath of God, children of wrath, enemies of God, hostile, rebellious, foolish, unrighteous, filthy, without Christ, without hope, desperately wicked, corrupt, abominable, workers of iniquity, under law, children of disobedience, deceitful and more. Some people only look at the sin of those who are not Christians but their real problem is far worse than that. The Bible clearly teaches that they are totally dead in sin and dead to God. Their continual sinning is the just normal consequence and result of not having God's Life inside them to depend on.

This problem of our sinful corruption was so bad and thorough that even God, Himself could not repair us. There was nothing God could do with that sinful nature, no touching up, no revising, no improving it and no adding to it could ever make it acceptable in His sight. Our sinful nature was entirely hostile to him. We were so corrupt, so wicked and evil that the only thing God could to do with our sinful nature was to crucify it with Christ. The only possible cure for your old life was death.

The Good News is that God has already provided the solution for us in Christ. You were crucified with Christ and you were buried with Him. Your old sinful nature died and you received God's Divine Nature to replace it. The only solution was to have us crucified with Christ and then He gives us His LIFE. So we died, and we became a New Creation. God made us righteous, holy, clean, purified, and justified. We have no need to become a better person, because God has already made us into a new person.

God in Christ has made you one with Him. He made you a NEW CREATION. You were made as righteous and perfect as Christ is.. You are one with Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ. Your old self was crucified and buried With Christ and you have been raised WITH HIM. You now have a new pure heart and God's very Divine Nature. You have received His all-sufficient Life in exchange for you old corrupt self.

Now the Christian life isn't yours to live. God does not depend on you to live His Life for Him. He knows that it impossible for you to live His life, so He gave you His life. You do not live for Him - He lives for you. Now you can fully depend on God's Life rather than depending on what you do or do not do. You no longer need to make promises that you can never keep or try to dedicate and rededicate your life to Him. You now have Christ living His Life through you. You no longer have to try to make the Christian life work through your own efforts and resources. It is only made possible by your union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

This is all God's gift to us gift from God. We can never deserve it or earn it. We seem to take it very lightly that Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ", and "I died." But those are powerful statements! So, what died? What was crucified with Christ? Our bodies obviously didn't die. Our souls didn't die, we can still think and feel and we still have make choices. So what died was our old corrupt self - our sinful nature. At the cross our sinful nature was killed - dead, gone, crucified - forever - and we were raised to life with the righteous nature of Christ.

You have died and were created anew. This is referring to the very essence and core of who we really are. This is the reality of who we really are in our spirits. God didn't take the "old us" and change us into a "better" or "improved" us. Rather, we died and we were re-created as a brand New Creation. We haven't been revived. We've been regenerated and re-created completely! In other words, God didn't take the old us and pump some life into it. Rather, we died and God made us into something completely new - a New Creation. Our old life wasn't changed. It was exchanged with a real life - the very life of Jesus!

So it is impossible to for a Christian to be a just forgiven sinner. Forgiveness and pardon can never be the solution because forgiveness could never change who we are in essence and who we really are deep down inside. Forgiveness could not change the fact of our sinful nature. We were totally rotten to the core. We were totally dead to God and our very nature was hostile and an enemy of God. No amount of reformation, or improvements could make it better. God demands holiness, perfection and righteousness. The only way for Him to solve this problem was to kill us and then GIVE us His Divine Nature in place of our own nature. This is the FREE Gift of God - Christ's Life.

Please read these scriptures prayerfully and slowly and let the truth set you free.

1 Cor. 6:17, "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."

Col. 3:3-4, "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Acts 17:28, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

Gal. 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

2 Cor. 5:14, "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead."

John 1:12, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

Rom. 6:3-6, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

2 Cor. 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

1 Cor. 3:17, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

1 Cor. 6:15: "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?"

1 Cor. 6:19, "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

2 Peter 1:3-4, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

1 John 5:11-12, "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Rom 8:8-10, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

2 Cor. 5:21, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

Col. 1:12 -14, "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet (qualified) to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins."

Eph. 1:3-4, " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

Rom. 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

 2014/11/24 9:21
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 Re:

Thanks for your reply, tuc.

I agree with the essence of what you are saying. I would just give a word of caution about the language that we use when speaking to Muslims about what accomplishes salvation.

For instance, we must be careful not to make it seem as though repentance was a deed that EARNS salvation (which Muslims believe: God decides to ignore/forgive the sins of those who work enough repentance - although it's never clear just how much repentance is necessary).

Now, it is true that repentance leads to salvation and forgiveness of sins, but the reason it does is because of what God has accomplished in His Son (atoning sacrifice, resurrection) and what He has accomplished to apply such a salvation to our hearts (regeneration, sanctification, justification). In other words, God does not accept us and forgive us because we have WORKED enough repentance; RATHER, God accepts us and forgives us because He has punished our sins on the cross, raised us with Christ to new life, and changed our hearts so that we might receive these benefits through repentance and faith in Christ. Muslims think that self-willed repentance earns your salvation; Christians understand that God accomplishes salvation in His Son, then begins the work in you and brings it to completion by virtue of His mercy.



Anyways, hopefully the Christian apologetic won't get lost in the war of words, which is why I deliberately formulated the previous essay as bluntly as possible, as a counter-argument to the shortcomings of Islam in terms of the payment for the sins of guilty sinners. Muslims don't take issue with the need for repentance; they take issue with the need for a sacrifice.

Have a blessed day, and may God use you powerfully to fight for the advancement of His Kingdom.

 2014/11/24 10:44Profile
onemite
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Joined: 2011/9/19
Posts: 168


 Re:

Amen, Renoncer.

The Muslims that I know take issue with the need for a sacrifice saying that God will forgive whom he pleases.
Additionally, blood is seen as defiling, therefore, they do not see it as able to make anything clean.

 2014/11/25 1:49Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

I was involved in Apologetics as well and have debated with Muslims in the past. I don't think this is a valid argument. Forgiveness of Sins existed even in Old Covenant. It is not something new to New Covenant. What is new is Justification, which is God not just covers our sins but will also cleanse us and see us like how he sees Jesus. This is because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

The Muslim guy who I once argued with had some knowledge on Bible. They search the Bible to find references of Mohamed because Quran said so. He was quoting certain scriptures to prove that sacrifice of Jesus was unwanted and he was not God. I proved all his points wrong. Once I prove one point as wrong immediately he will move to next point. This kept continuing. Finally I asked him just one question, that was end of discussion.

Mohamed gave many laws to Muslims, but he himself did not follow them. Suppose you are looking for teacher to learn swimming, will you choose a teacher who never gets into the water but gives only instruction or will you choose an instructor who gets into water himself, shows you how to swim and is also willing to hold you to prevent drowning? Mohamed is like that first teacher who saw himself as above any law and never kept them. But Jesus practiced all that he preached, he not only showed the way but also walked in it.

He got so upset with this and his answer was, I have no authority to comment on life of Mohamed without accepting him as prophet. He then ran off from arugment. To me it is not about winning the argument, it is about placing a seed in his heart that has potential to grow. He now has a doubt in the life of Mohamed and how he can lead him to God. Which to me is good enough.


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Sreeram

 2014/11/25 2:25Profile
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 708
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 Re:

The debate between Christians over being free from the law and the chains of legalism pale to insignificance compared to Islam. While we debate the law of God and the constraints of His love and order, Muslims are crushed under a system where they can never know what their god wants because he is completely capricious.

Their currency is honor, but they never know when honor is working or if it has been either revoked or replaced with someone's greater honor. They have no ground upon which to live that isn't walled in by fear. Allah does what he wishes, without restraint, without character, without hope.

No wonder his followers leave a steady trail of blood everywhere they go.


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Tom Cameron

 2014/11/27 0:35Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2763
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 Re: If Islam is true and if Christianity is true

Quote:
In the 1st century, Jesus told his followers that God sent His Son into the world to make atonement for sin, so that He might forgive our sins. In the 7th century, Mohammed told his followers that God can simply absolve sin without making atonement for sin. So, has the debt of sin been paid? Has evil been purged? Does the Judge of the universe let moral crimes go unpunished, or does He punish evil? How can God be both just and merciful?



This is probably a good starting point for discussion with a Muslim because they believe that man can neither grieve Allah nor bring him joy. To suggest that Allah is grieved by our sins would be considered an insult from the Muslim's viewpoint; it would make him seem vulnerable and make him to be not beyond reach. In their mind the inaccessibilty of Allah is a mark of his greatness.

So from the Muslim viewpoint men may harm themselves and others through sin but sin is never actually directed against Allah, because of this the Muslim does not need to be reconciled to Allah and therefore Christ's atonement is not needed.

I believe we need to discuss with the Muslim the fact that God is approachable. In sura 19:93 it says, "there is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave." In other words, no one may approach Allah with the love of a child for its father, as we can approach God our Father.

In Christ,


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Ron Halverson

 2014/11/27 13:16Profile
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Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 Re:

Thanks for your comment, InTheLight.

It's true that one of the major issues that Muslims must wrestle with is the approachability of God. In fact, that issue is intimately related to the need for a sacrifice.

We must tell Muslims the truth, that left to ourselves, we are unable to approach God. That's why He must come down to us, bridging the gap, covering our sins, purchasing us from the slave market of sin, satisfying the demands of His holy character. Unless He actually takes care of the problem, we are without hope. Unless He reaches down to us, our efforts to reach up fall woefully short.

The wonderful truth is that God has done such a thing, once for all! Hallelujah! We do not have to wait for it like those in the Old Covenant who lived under the shadow of this heavenly gift (Hebrews 10:1), nor is there any ambiguity as to what would resolve our problem. Jesus Himself told us that we should say, "The kingdom of God has come near to you." (Luke 10:9)

No wonder that Muslims can never know for sure what their fate will be, even though they may try to follow the pillars of Islam. They are robbed of the only solution to their predicament! We must show them the place where God's holiness and God's mercy have met... at the cross, and then vindicated at the resurrection! As the Psalmist puts it: "Steadfast love and faithfulness meet; righteousness and peace kiss each other." (Psalm 85:10)


There are many facets to this issue, but I trust that as we proclaim the way of salvation provided by God in His Son, God will use it to bring conversions amongst even the most hardened Muslims.

Thanks for your input! Keep spreading the Word.

 2014/11/27 14:09Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7486
Mississippi

 Re:

We have had a former Muslim speak at our church, hoping to teach us how to reach these people. The bottom line, as I recall, is that Muslims never experience forgiveness. This is the basic issue one must address in dealing with them. They have none, have never experienced it.

Muslims consider themselves moral people, decry the moral depravity common in western culture. Yet, their country's leaders will bring plane loads of prostitutes in for their men...but this knowledge is hidden. The men will also molest their daughters, sisters and if she is so unfortunate to conceive she will be killed, the body taken to the desert and buried. Am I making this up? I personally know of someone who has lived there many years and this is what he says and you will find this info in other places as well - it is not one man's word against another.

Just thought I would share this for your consideration.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2015/1/15 9:08Profile
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 708
San Diego

 Re: Natural enemies

Last evening (1-14) Franklin Graham came on Hannity's show and opened his remarks to any Muslims listening. "First, I want to tell any Muslims listening that God loves you!"

I groaned and turned off the TV.

They do not serve God as in the true Creator God that is revealed to all mankind through the Son Jesus Christ. The god they are trying to please, and who is never pleased, the one they call Allah, is hidden behind a dark curtain and they even acknowledge that they will never meet him. In ignorance they worship Satan if I may be so blunt.

Both Christianity and Islam are "true" religions in a very real sense. The one, Christianity, is the careful, long term fulfillment of the prophetic promise of life from the God who created man, the other is the creation of one man, uncorroborated, that enslaves its followers and kills any who stray or question. It carries the power of control and death because it is rooted in the spiritual power of Satan, whose aim is to capture and destroy all mankind.

The depravity practiced by Muslims in some parts of the world are enough to make a sane person vomit. My friend who serves in Afghanistan has told of the systematic sexual abuse of young boys as well as the women, when he visited the home of one of his Afghan associates the man had to hide his wife and daughters in another room while he was there. If my friend had so much as looked at the women, the Afghan said he would have to kill them later.

My friend said, "Hey, if you came to my house my wife would be wearing shorts and a tanktop and joining the conversation."

Afghan man was not amused.

There is no love, no compassion, no forgiveness, no relationship in the spirit to awaken any of these virtues. Allah has none of these virtues in the first place. Everything is family, honor, obedience, and revenge- and nothing is owed to infidels.

Franklin! Wake up and smell the coffee! Muslims do not serve or understand our God, and the god to whom they bow is a Devil!

Time to tell it like it is, because these people are hellbent to destroy western civilization. Are we going to just hold the door open?


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2015/1/15 11:27Profile





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