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MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

Jesus has spoken on the matter and He has said that to enter into a marriage after divorce is to commit adultery. Did He understand human loneliness? Of course He did, yet He also led Paul to reaffirm His teachings on the matter, If a woman does depart, she is to remain UNMARRIED or be reconciled to her husband and a husband is NOT to put his wife away (I Corinthians 7:10-11).

Why must we honor this in spite of loneliness, because we say we love the Lord and because when we marry our first marriage partner, we are joined for life. Only death will free one to marry again (Romans 7:2-3, I Corinthians 7:39). I am so very glad that God is more merciful and forgiving than people. I am truly thankful that I will be judged by Him and not some Pharisaical Christians.

“What God has joined together, let man not separate.” Also, anyone who remarries after divorce—unless the divorce was prompted by marital unfaithfulness by the other person—commits adultery.

Personally speaking I am a widower, I could remarry, I just have no desire to, I still feel as though I am still married to my wife, that even death has not separated us, it just helps me move forward with this attitude.

Just a thought here, do any of you know for sure that Hal Lindsey's or Hagee's x wife/wives did not commit adultery? As for as I am concerned, if you don't, you have no right to judge.

The truth is that things aren’t always what they seem. Sometimes, what you see is not what you think you see. Falsely accusing, or judging, one another is a serious matter. It’s not that we intentionally make false judgments.

Most likely, we believe that our assumptions are correct. We trust our instincts. We trust what we see and know. Unfortunately, sometimes our instincts are wrong. Sometimes, we jump to conclusions before we get all the facts. John 7:24 warns us “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”


_________________
Bill

 2014/11/24 9:59Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 611
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

I would prefer to take Jesus' warning seriously and BEWARE of them. The word "cannot" means "cannot" in verse 18. Whether or not they are forgiven is between them and God. We hope that they are granted forgiveness before leaving earth... But as "prophets" or "proclaimers" ... they have already shown their fruit ... not good. BEWARE! (take Jesus' advice ... don't pay any attention to anyone else').

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2014/11/24 14:17Profile
dfella
Member



Joined: 2010/7/9
Posts: 295
Canton, Michigan

 Re:

All,

It is not my intention to get involved in discussions that may lead to strife, contention, and debates. When I do, I truly do so prayerfully. My heart and desire is that we extend the same courtesy to one another as God has extended to each and every one of us as He bids us to "come and reason together", Isaiah 1:18.

First of all a short testimony about myself. This topic of judging and adultery are two topics that affected me and my wife personally. We married when we both were lost, I got saved and poured myself into church and God. She attended the ride for a few years but eventually felt rejected by me and lonely.

She began having an affair. I was encouraged to divorce her and find a Christian wife as my wife did not get saved. For 3 years I was confused as to what Gods will was. Do I, 1) Love my wife. 2) Find another wife. 3) Remain single and serve God.

After 9 years of being saved I got filled with the Holy Spirit because I was truly thirsty and hungry for everything God wanted for me and the confusion was eating me alive.

Shortly thereafter God speaks to me in a way I had never felt or heard before. One day while sitting in church where a woman I was attracted to also attended, I looked at a couple who were sitting together holding hands and kissing one another. The problem was they both had recently divorced their mates who also attended the same church and they now were planning on getting married.

As I looked at them God said, "David, come out from amongst these people, for this (divorcing my wife and remarrying another)is not My will for you. As He said these words, I felt like a ton of weight left me. He then said, "David, love your wife as I love the church and gave Myself for her". I now felt free, the confusion was gone and He said a third thing, "If you will trust Me and obey My word, I will restore your home and your marriage".

My wife divorced me 2 years later, but I knew God had spoken a promise to me and 7 years later my wife and I remarried (2006). Our lives have never been the same.

During this time of great trial and testing God faithfully ministered to Me His will for my life, home, and marriage by the Holy Spirit. He then provided men who came and confirmed all that God had said with the scriptures.

My first question is regarding some statements brother Greg has stated. He said,

"Is it possible for God to have mercy on remarriage, yes. Is remarriage a sin, it does appear our Lord clearly shows it as transgression".

If remarriage while one has a living mate still living is sin as you state and the word confirms how can God also have mercy?

If a remarriage starts out as adultery as it appears in the case of Hal Lindsey, at what point does God have mercy?

The church has fallen into deception or has been turned over to deception when it comes to covenant marriage. For anyone to obtain mercy, repentance is a prerequisite.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

The word says there are 2 conditions that must be met in order to obtain mercy. Confessing the sin AND forsaking the sin.

So my question is, Why is the sin of adultery the exception to the rule of repentance? In order for a thief to be forgiven he must quit stealing, a liar must quit lying, a drunkard must put away the bottle, etc. Yet with the adulterer why can he still continue on with his adultery?

There is no answer in the affirmative. Repentance means to turn from and to turn to. Turn from the sin, idolatry, blasphemy, stealing, murder (anger), coveteousness, fornication, AND adultery, and turn to God.

Ignorance is no longer an excuse for sin as God NOW commands repentance.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

In addition, ignorance is not an excuse because we already know in our own conscience when we are sinning against God. If the lost and unregenerate know, how much more do we that have the Spirit of God know when we or others are sinning against Him?

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature (because of their conscience) the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

On judgement day, God will be clear when He speaks and righteous when He judges and He does not even need the bible or written scriptures to condemn every human being that has ever been born. He can simply show every man where he has sinned against his own conscience.

Greg also said, "It goes beyond scripture to state that every remarriage is in perpetual adultery".

Brother, I so prefer to have these kinds of discussions face to face so we can reason together and for the other side to see that the goal is not contention, division, or strife but contending for the faith of Gods Holy Words.

When sin begins and it is not stopped, confessed, and repented of, it is perpetual, IT IS a state of being. If this is true for the thief and the liar, it is also true for the adulterer, there is no exception unless one's previous mate die's.

Romans 7:2-3 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. (3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be CALLED an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Paul says that if anyone, man or woman, marries another while their covenant spouse is still alive they shall be CALLED an adulterer(ess). That word "called" means they will "bear as a title" their sin. Whether one is a thief, adulterer, liar, until they repent they will be called a thief, adulterer, liar.

The bible says we are to speak the truth, everyone to his neighbor. The motivation for speaking the truth is love and I agree we must believe that God would have mercy but mercy requires confession and forsaking of the sin. We judge first the sin in ourselves and we judge the sin in others not to CONDEMN but RESTORE.

I have heard so many people who have confessed that their second and many times subsequent marriages started out as adultery but that they had repented while still remaining in the marriage. I have heard Pastors say the very same thing from the pulpit, can you imagine what the fornicator or drunkard sitting in that same church or hearing that same logic? He would say to himself, OK, if that guy can hang on to his adulterous marriage and still make it into heaven, I guess I can keep sleeping with my girlfriend and getting drunk every night.

The very reason the divorce rate is so high within the church and Pastors leading the pack in divorce and extramarital affairs is because we as the church have failed to stand and fight for the truth and call sin, sin.

Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword (judgement) come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

God have mercy on us if we cannot see the importance of what God instituted in the garden in the very beginning when He said He would make two one flesh. When God says that judgement will begin at the house of God, it's not that it is coming in the future, it's here.

God has even turned up the degree of judgement because we not only excuse adultery in the house of God we are now beginning to excuse same sex marriage!!!!!!!!!

Professing Christians, Joel Osteen, and many others are saying, "Who are we to judge?"

Jesus clearly says, when we judge, judge righteously and not hypocritically, get the beam out of your eye FIRST, so that you can clearly see to HELP your BROTHER get the splinter out of his eye. We judge because God has SET judgement in the church and we judge because we love God and the brethren, the two great commandments.

Which one of us would walk by a burning home with children inside and not do everything in our power to rescue the children? Would we walk around debating the issue? Do we mind our own business? God forbid.

Covenant marriage between one man and one woman until death is a type and a picture of Christ's relationship with His bride. If we distort the first we will certainly distort the latter. Many professing Christians will embrace ecumenicalism and allow for other gods (husbands)saying Jesus is NOT the only way.

When the antichrist comes all the worlds religions will come together as one and this has already begun. This deception is being allowed due to the rejection of the true, a spirit of delusion has been released by God.

I want to jump back to a thought/question brother Bill has raised whether we know of Lindsey or Hagee's wives had committed adultery.

My own experience does not trump Gods will or scripture so please do not take what I am saying as thus sayeth the Lord.

Only in the book of Matthew do we have two verses that contain the exception clauses and I am not going into the usual arguments for and against these clauses at the moment. Just remember there are also two other Gospels that do NOT contain these exceptions.

In my own experience my wife left me after 10 years of marriage and began committing adultery. Because her sin was in the open for all to see EVERYONE jumped to the conclusion that I was innocent. Jesus says that ANYONE who looks upon the opposite sex and desires them sexually has committed adultery ALREADY in their heart.

Me, Lindsey, Hagee, and every single person here has committed adultery in their heart, period. There is not anyone of us innocent, and even if there were, we are doomed because we have certainly broken all of the other commandments.

Getting into bed with someone other than your spouse does not constitute adultery because it begins in the heart. Putting a knife in someone and killing them does not constitute murder because murder begins in the heart.

The answer to the question regarding these men and their wives is that THEY both have committed adultery in their hearts at some point. In my situation when you have your church, your Christian brothers and sisters, your family, and the DEVIL coming to you and telling you that you are innocent, there is a strong tendency to buy into that lie from the pit of hell.

As for me, my crying out to God for 3 years was, what was Gods will for me? God clearly spoke the WAY of love, forgiveness, restoration, and reconciliation, NOT divorce, unforgiveness, and justifying myself because I TOO was guilty.

God hates divorce, period. God showed me my own sin and what He did for me on the cross, He bid me to come a freely drink and receive of that forgiveness and He asked me how could I come and partake of that forgiveness and not do likewise to my own flesh?

My wife has returned, she was once lost, but now she is found, my wife until this very day speaks and testifies of the forgiveness that was shown her. Very often she tells someone that if I did not forgive her, she would be dead.

One thought that haunted me during the time she was in adultery and I was getting my eyes and heart on another woman in my church was, What would I do if I divorced my wife and remarried and then one day my wife came back and repented? Would I turn her away? that thought put such a FEAR in me by the grace of God and God used it to save me from making the mistake.

So the question is, what if these mens wives committed adultery like my wife?, is not forgiveness the path God would prefer? These men are leading the flock of God and setting the example.

Ezekiel 34:2-4 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? (3) Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. (4) The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

What does God say regarding the bill of divorcement He gave to Israel? Did that bill dissolve their union or covenant? No. Read Jeremiah 3 very carefully and see how many times God uses the Hebrew word shub H7725, which means to turn, return, bring back, restore, withdraw.... This word means in essence to repent.

While many think God put Israel away and has denied the covenant He made with them read very carefully.

Jeremiah 3:12-14 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, RETURN, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. (13) Only ACKNOWLEDGE thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed (committed adultery) against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD. (14) TURN, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I AM MARRIED unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

God say He, in spite of the bill of divorcement, is STILL married to Israel and wants her to acknowledge (confess) and turn (repent) back to Him.

For me, God used this portion with so many other lessons over our long trial, that He has not forsaken His wife as so many believe. I believe God wants us to follow the example of Himself and Hosea.

I realize that this may possibly anger some and I do not take that lightly, not for my sake, but for yours.

When it comes to divorce, two missing elements are repentance and forgiveness. For two Christians to not have these working in their marriage is beyond my comprehension and there is no excuse.

I am open to reasoning from the word of God but I refuse to fight His battles. If one has a sincere question I will answer from the scriptures, as I said, my own opinion and even my own experience are a far second to the authority of scripture.

My marriage is only one of tens of thousands God has restored and many say, "well that is for you, and not me?"

My answer to that is, If God is willing to do it for one, is He not willing to do it for another? If so, He then is a respecter of persons and we know that contradicts scripture.

Final judgement rests with God and while it grieves me to the core when I here people teach and lead people astray, my heart is to see these souls come to repentance, not judgement.

May the Lord help us.












_________________
David Fella

 2014/11/24 14:36Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I haven't seen this verse addressed in this thread:

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."-Matthew 19:9

Seems clear to me from that verse that God allows divorce in the case of adultery.

I think this verse is also pertinent here:

"But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace."-1Corinthians 7:15

The view that one must stay married to an adulterous spouse and cannot remarry even in a case of adultery or abandonment by their spouse is extreme and goes way beyond Scripture imo.


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Oracio

 2014/11/24 15:46Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 611
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

Oracio, Was Jesus being "extreme" when He clearly stated:

Luc 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Right after that statement, he tells the grizzly account of a man who died in his sins:

Luc 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: ...

Only one verse supports some sort of remote possibility of allowance for divorce (in the case of fornication ... Matt. 19:9), but not even that verse supports the idea that remarriage after divorce is permitted.

If you do a search on the word adultery in the New Testament, and with a sincere open mind and heart want to know how God feels about divorce and remarriage, you cannot come to the conclusion that you have stated:

"and cannot remarry even in a case of adultery or abandonment by their spouse is extreme and goes way beyond Scripture imo"

When you read all of the verses involving adultery in the New Testament you come to the realization that it would be extreme to permit remarriage.

Human feelings permit it in a heartbeat, but the heart is deceitful!


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Michael Strickland

 2014/11/24 16:13Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."-Matthew 19:9

So this is what I gather it's saying. If I divorce my wife because she was unfaithful,and marry another it's ok. If someone has not been married, they can marry her without committing adultery.


_________________
Bill

 2014/11/24 16:13Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Only one verse supports some sort of remote possibility of allowance for divorce (in the case of fornication ... Matt. 19:9), but not even that verse supports the idea that remarriage after divorce is permitted.


But we must heed that verse nonetheless, as well as the one in 1Cor. 7:15. They are part of God's Word. We cannot do away with them to hold on to a preferred view on marriage and remarriage. We must humble ourselves to the whole of God's Word. It does not contradict itself.

If Christ allows for a divorce in the case of adultery, by definition that implies remarriage is also allowed because a "divinely permissible" divorce dissolves the marriage covenant. Once the marriage covenant is broken there is no more binding to it, you are free from it.

1Cor.7:15 tells us that a brother or sister is no longer in bondage to a marriage if their spouse abandons them. They are free from the marriage.

Let's heed all of Scripture brothers and sisters, not just parts of it we may prefer above others.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/11/24 16:49Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Oracio, Was Jesus being "extreme" when He clearly stated:

Luc 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


Now if we take that verse in Luke at face value without considering Matt. 19:9, we can come to the conclusion that divorce is never allowed. But considering Matt.19:9 we cannot come to that conclusion or it will be contradictory. So we must reconcile both verses. The only way to do that is by considering divorce as allowable in the case of adultery, and considering also 1Cor.7:15, also in the case of abandonment. And again, if a divorce is permitted by God, that implies remarriage is also permitted.


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Oracio

 2014/11/24 16:53Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

defella,

Your testimony is inspiring. Appreciate you sharing it.

I did volunteer counseling at a Crises Pregnancy Center for many years. In the course of counseling women we had many who were divorced, fornicating, cheating...and we had a few godly ladies who simply wanted a pregnancy test - no crises for them.

For those who were divorced - or in varying stages of it - I asked them about their being divorced. "How do you feel about that?" I asked. With only one exception, they told me, "I know it is wrong." I asked, "what makes you say that?" They said, "You know what the Bible says.." I asked, "what does it say?" And they proceeded to tell me that it is wrong, it is sin.

Ladies and gentlemen, these ladies instinctively knew it was wrong. They did not come to my church and hear any sermons on this issue and I did not share my conviction with them on this issue. They attended churches where it was approved. How did they know? Why did they know? I did not tell them it was sin: they knew.

This was the work of the Holy Spirit. This experience reaffirmed to me the truthfulness of the WORD. From my observation the only people who give you any grief on this issue are those who have fought this conviction and have convinced themselves otherwise.

Ah, what a tangled web we weave when we decide to deceive. My heart does go out to these people. There is eternity ahead - how can a body impress another the awfulness of time away from God for ever and ever? Ya want a bit of pleasure now but at what cost? Lord, have mercy!



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Sandra Miller

 2014/11/24 17:10Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 611
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

"And again, if a divorce is permitted by God, that implies remarriage is also permitted."

To say that remarriage is permitted because divorce is permitted is a big leap of faith on one's own opinion. It is in no way implied nor supported by scripture.

David Fella has quite a thorough study on it in this thread! When Jesus was asked about it from the religious of his day, he clearly stated that it is NOT God's plan at all from the beginning, and that God had only permitted it (under Old Testament law) because of stubborn hard hearts! That was before the perfect sacrifice of Christ on Calvary.

In Jr. High school choir, we were taught a (worldly) song "You Light Up My Life"

"You light up my life,
You give me hope
To carry on
You light up my days
And fill my nights with song...."

The last line of the song characterizes the mentality of most adulterers: "It can't be wrong when it feels SO right ... cause you, you light up, you light up, you light up my life".

In the book of Proverbs, God points out that characteristic heart deception clearly:

Pro 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.


The fact that one feels perfectly right about it does not mean that it will pass the judgment of God. He Word leans totally in a different direction!


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2014/11/24 17:19Profile





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