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TMK Member

Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: | | There may be some confusion in terms.
Stated broadly, a charismatic is a Christian who believes that the spiritual gifts continue on today. I suspect a very large majority believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a subsequent and separate event from conversion. However, some believe that speaking in tongues is always the evidence of this, and others do not (like me).
Not all charismatics are WOFers- quite the contrary.
Some charismatics believe that physical healing is provided for in the atonement. (Actually I think AB Simpson may have been one of the first to teach this and I am not sure how charismatic he was). Some do not. For example, a bible teacher I really like (Steve Gregg) is charismatic in a conservative sense but he teaches strongly against WOF theology and does not believe that physical healing is provided for in the atonement. Nor does he believe that speaking in tongues is required evidence when a person receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Then you have your folks who believe that both healing and prosperity are provided for in the atonement. These are your Copelands, Dollars, etc. Gag... (IMO).
Then you have a stream of charismatics who are into the weird new agey type fusion. Danger danger.
The title of the this thread is deceiving because it is unfair to Dr Brown to say he is a WOF proponent. Nor is he a radical weird charismatic. Radical believer- I would say yes. Read his articles. Listen to his sermons. You will not get WOF teaching from him.
Again I would encourage you to email him, or call him on his radio program. He does respond. _________________ Todd
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2014/11/18 6:16 | Profile |
AbideinHim Member

Joined: 2006/11/26 Posts: 5185 Louisiana
| Re: | | Travis,
Thank you brother for this excellent post that brings balance into this discussion.
Problems occur when we hold on to our own opinions and do not allow the Holy Spirit to be our teacher and the Word to be a lamp unto our feet and a light to our path.
The Lord is concerned about sound doctrine but He is also concerned about the unity of the Spirit. There are some in the church today that have a religious spirit masquerading as discernment that feel that their calling in life is to expose error and get everyone straightened out that they perceive to be in error. If we truly know the Shepherd and hear His voice then error will not be difficult to discern. _________________ Mike
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2014/11/18 8:45 | Profile |
Heydave Member

Joined: 2008/4/12 Posts: 1306 Hampshire, UK
| Re: | | Mike I understand what you are trying to say and I wish it were that simple. I mean everyone claims to hear His voice and to know what is right, yet we differ in our conclusions! All those WoF guys claim they have direct revelation from hearing from God on their teaching. So we must test all things and compare them to the word of truth; rejecting those who claim they are ministers of truth but are not.
I was reading this passage in Leviticus last night and I think it is a relevant principle that we also see expounded in the NT.
Lev.19:17 says "You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him." NKJB.
Even clearer in the NIV: "Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt."
Another thought came to me as I was thinking about this subject and that is that a big problem is that most of the 'ministries' on either side of this debate all fall to one degree or another into the trap of maintaining their 'ministry'. They all sell, books, tapes, videos and have staff to pay and maybe TV production. As such they all have to 'market' themselves (via glossy magazines) to keep the money coming in and the 'ministry' going. I think this is a big problem in the church today (particularly in the USA) and not what the church is supposed to be like. Church is when we gather together with the Lord in the midst, accountable to each other in that gathering and receiving the living word ministered through one another. For example what Dolfan is doing in opening up his garage for meeting together with a few saints and reaching out to be a witness in his community is more valid of biblical church then any of these 'professional ministries', be they Dr Brown or John McArthur.
Thank God for places like SI where the messages that God gave freely are freely available and not being 'peddled' for earthly gain.
_________________ Dave
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2014/11/18 9:50 | Profile |
AbideinHim Member

Joined: 2006/11/26 Posts: 5185 Louisiana
| Re: | | Dave,
I was born again and filled with the Spirit in 1973. I was introduced to WOF teaching in the early 70 's. Back then many of the well known faith teachers that got off into error later on the prosperity message were preaching a pure word, although it wasn't perfect. God had mercy on me and I followed the teaching of David Wilkerson closely, and read many books by Andrew Murray and Watchman Nee. The first year or two after being saved, I devoured the Word of God and sought to be led by the Spirit. Because I had the Word hidden in my heart the Spirit of God was able to deliver me from much error without throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I agree with you brother that many good men got in error as their ministries grew larger and the money and popularity became a snare to them.
I love to fellowship in homes with other believers. We need true Body ministry recognizing Christ as the only Head, and allowing the Holy Spirit to lead the meetings. Most of the Denominational churches have lost their way. I belong to a small fellowship whose main emphasis is on prayer.
_________________ Mike
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2014/11/18 11:07 | Profile |
twayneb Member

Joined: 2009/4/5 Posts: 2256 Joplin, Missouri
| Re: | | Mike: We are so quick to see in others the thing that we are blind to in ourselves. There are movements and teachers out there that are either in error or have error present in their teaching. I can tell you that there are things I once believed and taught that now I look at and realize that I was wrong.
So what do we make of it? We have had discussion before of what it is that constitutes heretical error and what constitutes a simple misunderstanding of scripture that is not heretical. I find it a little saddening that we cannot even agree on this.
I have received great revelation from some teachers in the WOF camp that has caused me to truly grow in the things of God. I have also seen some definite error among some of the men and women who teach in this movement. The prosperity teaching is one of these. It has been twisted and contorted to cater to the itching ears of men and women who lust after material things. Yet, there is a truth our own generosity in giving to the Lord allows Him to bless us and meet our needs. It is just that these people focused on one aspect of scripture and went to seed on it, eventually turning truth into lasciviousness and greed.
Sound doctrine is important...vitally important. But we must be so careful that we do not mistake sound doctrine for OUR doctrine. We must remain teachable and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us as we diligently search His word with a heart that is open to His voice.
As an aside, I will give an event from my own life. I am a pentecostal. I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at 18 years of age. In recent years I have fellowshipped yearly with a group of very fundamental Baptists who very suspicious of speaking in tongues, etc. Yet when I am in their services, I can sense the presence of the Holy Spirit and we have sweep fellowship in worship and in the word of God. And there is such a spirit of love and unity in that place when we are together. I treasure those times. I think this kind of fellowship is important. I am not talking about fellowship between light and darkness. I am talking about fellowship among born again believers who need one another to grow in the grace and truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
_________________ Travis
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2014/11/18 15:31 | Profile |
hulsey Moderator

Joined: 2006/7/5 Posts: 653 Missouri
| Re: Not all charismatics are WOFers- quite the contrary. | | I'm a little late to the conversation but TMK is correct in his statement that all charismatics are not alike.
Charismatic was initially a term to describe someone who was theologically close to but not quite a Pentecostal.
To fit the definition of a classic Pentecostal two things have to both be true:
1. You have to be a part of a fellowship/movement that draws its history from the Holiness movement.
2. You have to believe that speaking in another tongue is the initial physical evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
The Assemblies of God, the Church of God (Nashville Tennessee), The Pentecostal Church of God...etc. would fall into this category.
If either of the two definitions are not true of the movement you are in but still believe the gifts are for today and practice them then you are a Charismatic.
Most Calvary Chapel churches would by this definition be charismatic.
Many charismatic churches were independent and did not have a well developed system of interpreting the Bible. While it freed them from the chains of tradition many times this also made them more susceptible to errant theology. Also, when a leader who was a part of a denomination erred in his theology he tended to leave and take his congregation with him. They were generally called Charismatic to differentiate them from Pentecostals. This has tended to put charismatics today in a negative light. _________________ Jeremy Hulsey
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2014/11/18 17:41 | Profile |
AbideinHim Member

Joined: 2006/11/26 Posts: 5185 Louisiana
| Re: | | Travis,
You made this statement in a previous post that is worth repeating, especially if we are going to understand how much of the error got into the Church through various teachers and movements.
"Almost every error is in reality a truth exalted to the exclusion of another truth or other truths."
In other words truth that is taken to extremes without the balance of other truths will lead to error.
I believe that was the case with the carnal prosperity message that was taught without the teaching of the cross and self denial. As a result of this, God became a means to an end, the end being the prosperity of the believer. The true riches are only found in Christ, who is the pearl of great price, and we never have to worry about how our needs will be met when we are seeking His Kingdom first. _________________ Mike
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2014/11/18 18:26 | Profile |
twayneb Member

Joined: 2009/4/5 Posts: 2256 Joplin, Missouri
| Re: | | I agree Mike. Very true. _________________ Travis
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2014/11/19 12:32 | Profile |
psalm1 Member

Joined: 2007/1/30 Posts: 1230
| Re: | | Quote by oracio "But to me there is not much of a difference because they are both forms of earthly prosperity, one being prosperity in health and the other being prosperity in material possessions. "
Both are promises in the word,and jesus did more healing than anything else. It would be silly to think God is moved by an absense of faith,which you seem to imply..
Prosperity= Gods will Healing = Gods will
I know where I stand. Jesus "...thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
Heaven = no sickness Heaven = no lack (prosperity) |
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2015/1/27 1:09 | Profile |
psalm1 Member

Joined: 2007/1/30 Posts: 1230
| Re: | | Quote by heydave "Kenyon was in to metaphysics and how you can create your own reality. Hagin taught exactly the same."
Hmmmm,looks like Jesus was also into what hagin and kenyon were into. From websters; "In the history of Western philosophy, metaphysics has been understood in various ways: as an inquiry into what basic categories of things there are (e.g., the mental and the physical); as the study of reality, as opposed to appearance; as the study of the world as a whole; and as a theory of first principles. " |
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2015/1/27 1:18 | Profile |