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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : To be human is to be sinful?

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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 710
San Diego



I think the point, while somewhat veiled, is that many preachers of the gospel in Harold's view, teach that sin is some kind of natural substance in a human being.

My Lutheran friends knew the catechism well, and the statement they recited at every service: "we have sinned every day in thought, word, and deed." The idea of living in a sin-free loving relationship with God was out of the question- but apparently Harold questioned it.

Having grown up in Minnesota, I remember the Lutheran culture that Harold dealt with, and how in the early '60's a revival swept through so many of those old line churches. There was havoc and church splits galore as so many received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit- while others opposed it

I am not familiar with the way Harold actually taught, but I believe he knew that there was a level of holy living God expected from His people that was hindered by the teaching that daily sin was acceptable. There is nothing in his approach that I can see where he was teaching the very rigid doctrine of sinless perfection.

Maybe Eileen can shed more light, but I expect Harold was very familiar with people like Paris Reidhead, Len Ravenhill, Dick Easterday, Morris Vaagness, and Alan Langstaff who were actively preaching in the area at the same time.

Tom Cameron

 2014/11/9 22:46Profile

Joined: 2011/2/6
Posts: 50

 Re: Sinless perfection virus Christian perfection

Generally speaking, "sinless perfection" is used to mean a state in which the Christian cannot sin, a state where he is not only cleaned from all sin but freed from temptation to sin, and therefore a state where the atonement is no longer needed. Such ideas are certainly not Scriptural, nor promised in the Word, nor necessary for living a victorious life.

Is there not a perfection which is Scriptural? what has God promised Christians? Does God expect us to be perfect as Adam before the Fall? Perfect as the angels? Certainly not perfect as GOD!!!

We are sinners saved by grace and called Christians.. And so, the perfection that God expects of us is this: to be by the grace of God { not by our own strength or reason of our own} all that a Christian should be. This is Christian perfection.

This thinking has to be based on the Word As we look back, we see the depths of sin from which we were saved. Our hearts and voices are lifted to God in praise for this wonderful grace of salvation.

Hebrews 7:25 makes mention of what we are saved TO." He is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."
What is this uttermost salvation? what is Christian perfection? Matthew 5: 48: " Ye shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Is Jesus commanding something possible . or is He trying to drive us to despair?

Read Matthew 5: 44-48 carefully: " I say unto you, Love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you; that ye be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.
For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if you salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same?

Here we read that the Father loves all and blesses all. According to the context it is in love that we are to be perfect- not with a perfection of the head but of the heart.

1 Peter 1:15,16 " Like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves holy in all manner of living; because it is written, Ye shall be holy, for I am holy."

Those who are not seeking the uttermost salvation, the ready answer [excuse] to this passage is that we are holy and perfect "in Christ" But Peter anticipated this excuse when he added a phrase after the word holy, whose meaning we cannot mistake: The King James says" holy in all manner of conversation." this means that the whole expression of life should be one of practical holiness.

We are not to be holy by proxy only.
We are to be holy right now and perfect in love right now.

To stop at the truth of justification, which is only the beginning of what God wants to do for us, is a mistake.

For Jesus sake God justifies us that He may make us just and holy.
The Bible teaches not only imputation of holiness, but also impartation of holiness, for it says " we are partakers of the Holy Spirit" Hebrews 6:4

Information taken from the book The Cross and Sanctification
by T.A.Hegre who was one of the founders of Bethany.

I will soon post again on the material in Harold J Brokke's free verse~ Listen, Protestant leaders ~Eileen


 2014/11/10 17:01Profile

Joined: 2011/2/6
Posts: 50



There is a place I see in my book which lists the speakers who came to speak at Bethany through the years: T. Austin Sparks conference 1951

Norman Grubb was the first I knew of as a close friend of the people there at Bethany. His influence was in the form of a challenge for missions before the Center was formed. The group's question was,"what could they do to further the gospel going forth to all nations?"

Mr Grubb wrote the forward to T.A. Hegre's book - The Three Aspects Of The Cross. The Title for that book is now- The Cross and Sanctification.
He writes in one section ...In this book Ted Hegre seeks to present a whole gospel- justification, sanctification, and enduement for service.

His central theme- the threefold message of the Cross- is a basic emphasis rarely presented in this form, and so, may properly be called the special revelation given to Ted Hegre.
How whole-heartedly we add our amen to this emphasis! His handling of the two-nature teaching, his differentiation between the " old man" and flesh, and his definition of flesh are illuminating.

I don't cross every one of his t's ( though he hopes to get me converted sometime!}, and I doubt that we are meant to, for we are called to union with a glorious Person not to a set of doctrines.

.[skipping on in his writing]...From my point of view, what makes this book ring with reality is the behind-the-scenes outworking of these truths in the ordinary folk on Bethany staff, for on them is obviously the divine unction.

You know of course who Norman Grubb was. At the time of this writing he was General Secretary of the WEC.[Worldwide Evangelization Crusade] Many of the first students completing training were sent out through this Mission. Founded by C.T.Studd. Mr. Grubb knew C.T. well as her married Pauline the daughter of C.T.

Lenard Ravenhill suggested a replacement for himself as he could not keep his commitment for conference due to health.

This replacement was Paris Reidhead [probably 1954] Here's a human interest story.. In the 50's Bethany was concerned about constructing an auditorium to hold the increasing number of persons attending the Bible conferences. However, to build a large building just for Sunday services and conferences, did not seem very practical.

However, during one of Reidhead's visits, as he sat in the dining hall with Ted Hegre and Richard Dahlen, he used a napkin to design a building that would not only seat about a thousand persons but included space for dormitory rooms, a medium-size meeting room, elders' prayer room, choir room, video/audio projection room for taping the services, and also a sound proof room where mothers with small children could view and hear the entire service. This became the basic plans for the church.

Rev. Paris Reidhead was a very learned man commissioned by the UN as Industrial Development Organization Consultant to formulate logistics for supplying food to people starving in third-world nations in Africa. He established WEC sending bases in Charlotte. Pittsburg, Seattle and Toronto .

Ten Shekels and a Shirt was delivered at Bethany. Rev. Reidhead said this is the only message he ever felt he needed to explain how it came about. You can read this explanation by simply using your search engine- typing in the words~ Message Ten Shekels and a on Truth in Heart and there you go

Leonard and Martha Ravenhill and sons, Paul, David, and Philip, invited and sponsored by Bethany to come to the States from England. Rev. Ravenhill made Bethany his home for himself an family for seven years as he traveled extensively throughout the United States, South America and even to other countries including Australia and New Zealand. Paul, became a missionary to Paraquay; David a missionary to the Islands of the Pacific and Philip an executive with the Smithsonian Institute. Rev. Ravenhill and Martha finally moved to Finley, Texas where he maintained a worldwide ministry through speaking and correspondence.

Bethany's latest ministry is found at about 3 minutes into a short video comes the information on a great break-through in placing publishing centers in strategic places through out the world.

There is a place of quiet rest, near to the heart of God,
A place where sin cannot molest, near to the heart of God.
O Jesus, blest Redeemer, Sent from the heart of God,
Hold us, who wait before Thee, Near to the heart of God. Hymn [ no author of this verse is mentioned]

Many a student expressed that they felt a settling of peace upon entering the grounds. Quiet Rest is a good description.
I agree with Mr Grubb that those people walked with God.I learned more by watching the message of the Cross being lived out in the lives of the staff than from any book or manual. I bless God for the privilege of becoming acquainted with so many saints of God

One remaining original staff ~ celebrated his 103 birthday this past year!

Sincerely, Eileen~ alumni 1954-1957


 2014/11/12 12:00Profile

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