let me say this first, everything I wrote in my prior post stands, I love you, unconditionally. when I love, I love, period.

but heaven help you if you lie to me, and you did. you said you were not in opposition to me, yet you write this to my brother Frank:

I love listening to your "long ramblings"....I'm kinda tuckered out and disillusioned by some of the stuff I been reading and responding to....could I write you tomorrow morning after a cup of coffee, I got a story and testimony you and "noone" might want to hear?

its about the time God allowed me to SEE the Template of the Meeting where Jesus is Pastor. God bless you both, sleep well brothers, neil

Absolutely brother Neil, but if I may I really think you are misunderstanding my brother Greg and I would go so far as to say that perhaps these kind of tricky conversations are best had face to face around a campfire over a cup of coffee.

The reason I say this is because it is really easy to misunderstand and then misrepresent a brothers heart. Take the reference to Frank Viola for example. He is just as much a brother in Christ as you or I or any number of people. I do not agree with his strange theories of course but I will allow him grace to do what ever he feels the Lord is calling him to, just as I do for you and for brother Greg. The only reason that Greg raised the issue of Frank Viola is because Frank has a very anti-leadership stance of which I am sure you are well aware. Those who have become caught up in his teachings and the movement (as I was) end up becoming very confused and it just gets all weird and awkward in some cases.

If I may, I believe what brother Greg is saying is that there is room, there is grace with the Lord for the cat to be skun a number of ways. The Lord is building His church and winning His people to Himself regardless of the messes we make of our ideas and movements and church structures and models. In the end He is Lord and will accomplish His purposes. I guess what I am saying is that as I have gotten older I have asked for the Lord to teach me His ways, to show me His heart. In the past I just wanted to call down fire on anyone or anything that I didn't agree with, that didn't sit well with me. But if you will recall, when the disciples tried this, the account of Jesus reaction is quite hilarious, "..but Jesus rebuked them..." Wow. I can imagine a scene of Him taking them behind the woodshed. Personally over the last 12 months this is what the Lord has been doing in me...rebuking me for my attitude towards other servants of God.

I personally have been involved in just about every kind of "church" expression except probably the mennonite and hudderite kinds of communities, but I am game if the Lord is game, lol:) Anyway, I guess where I am coming from is that I have a certain ideal in my head that I think is the "perfect" way and everytime I discover a church expression that does not align itself to my way of thinking then I invariably become dissallusioned and move on. In the early days I usually became offended and had an attitude about the group that I was leaving. This was wrong and immature.

Today, I hope and pray that I can be more gracious and Christlike and bless them that are sincere in the way they are serving the Lord. They are serving Christ with what light they have received. It is not my place to criticize and look down my nose at them and pretend that I have something better. Thats what I was trying to say in my earlier post...I have nothing better lol. But thats ok I am not in dispair, in fact I am growing ever and ever more hopeful that the Lord is going to bring about a massive move on my life and that of my family members. We all want the purity and simplicity and Christ led movement of the early church but at the same time we are not prepared to CONSECRATE ourselves as they did in the upper room. We want the fire of Pentecost but without the COST! I am speaking of myself and my family now. This is where we left off last night in our little huddle as we sought the Lord. We ended the night listening to a part of the message from Leonard Ravenhill "The Judgement Seat of Christ". We were all stirred and convicted to consecrate oursleves afresh unto the Lord.

We left off with this scripture that I leave with all of us here on this board..."Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow the Lord will do a wonder in your midst..." Joshua 3:5

Bottom line here and I pray very much that you will not be offended by this but I love you and yet I don't know you at all, I love your hunger and your passion for Christ, it is such a blessing and an inpsiration to all of us...but I would pray that you do not read too deeply into what people are saying about this subject of leadership. It is a distraction of the enemy. There is actually a gift of leadership that Paul speaks of and the "leaders are to lead diligently". What we have seen so very often however is UN-diligent leadership. What brother Greg is suggesting is that there is a place for "Dead Men" to be placed as the Lord desires to help Him build His church. They are meant for a specific purpose as are all other members of the body and once that purpose is done then they must GET OUT OF THE WAY.

That right there is one of the most difficult thing facing the body of Christ today...spirit-filled-dead-men-leaders, who can be used of God but at the same time slip in and out of the shadows as the Spirit leads them. I believe the best explanation of this was your own posting from Bartleman's description:

"Brother Seymour was RECOGNIZED as the nominal LEADER IN CHARGE in charge. But we had no pope or hierarchy. We were “brethren.” We had no human program. The Lord Himself was leading."

This is the apparent oxymoron..."recognized leaders of a leaderless movement"...lol!

Only the Holy Spirit can produce such dead men for such a task as befitting what happened in Los Angeles over 100 years ago and He will again, I believe...very soon. Only the Lord can raise up such men and woman to birth such movements. But that is all they are, just broken vessels who bring the "baby" forth, but they are not the "baby" and they don't even really nurture the "baby". All that is done by the Holy Spirit through the many and various members of the Lords body.

Again my befuddled ramblings may have unravelled any good thoughts that I might have made, and if so please forgive me and lets just agree to one day meet up and figure it all out over a coffee! I do believe however that we can all agree on the spirit of what you have been articulating in your opening post and subsequent comments. And it is so encouraging to read many others adding their points of view as well...yet the basic remains the same, we want to see the Lord move and truly guide and shepherd His people, the reality is though that we are probably not going to figure out EXACTLY what this looks like until one day we find ourselves right in the middle of it and we all say, "aaaahhhh, so this is what it looks like".

in all transparency, I felt no peace after my "hasty" and ill'spoke' letter.

How could I?....even though geographic distance separates us, for 12 years now, the Lord has bound us together in the Love of Messiah, and this Majestic Ministry of reconciliation. God knows I love you!...and together we love Jesus. Therefore we have a unity we simply must embrace in front of the saints. Please forgive how I strident I get at at times.

this statement you made gave me greater understanding:

Beloved, that was a wise post you made, and I received that Word. God bless you , saint who publishes peace.

I saw that thread about the tragic story of that dear woman's murder, and the demoniac who did...and I want you to know, I said "amen" in my soul. The primary reason I didn't "chime in", is that these i'm very leery about speaking on any 2nd Amendment issues, as I feel so strongly about this Right, and might say things that aint prudent, get what i'm saying?

in short, you and I would have a pretty good time on this porch, just shooting the breeze, talking, praying, pondering, laughing.

I was going to tell you a testimony, about one meeting in a widows house with thirty saints, in a God forsaken canyon just outside Los Angeles, but my spirit isn't right this morning to speak what I saw, that Wonderful Day....I want my testimony to be RIGHT. God willing, in this thread, I will tell you about that Day, I witnessed the Lord Jesus Pastor a meeting, that even to this day, the saints that were there still talk about as "the best meeting" they ever been to. I will show you a picture now of one of the elements that happened on that day:

http://www.malibutimes.com/news/article_e6282c70-bb69-5c53-b667-7920a324d3b0.html

read the article real careful like....a 300 ton boulder, the man who drowned in the creek, after a drunken dare, was a soul that my brother had been ministering to for months, and trying to help with not only resource, but speaking the Words of Life in Jesus Christ to him. His father, a very stormy soul, yet one who professed Jesus, was used many times to disrupt the small intercessory open prayer meeting we used to have on Thursday, before the "church" board, booted us out. They booted us out, because they booted the Godly pastor there out, but that pastor, a dear friend, erred, and took them to "court", against the pleas of many of us, on the basis of 1st Cor 6.

That Sunday Meeting, held in a Godly widow's house, Mother Mimi, who is with the Lord now, was my brothers last meeting there as him and his family, were headed out into the 10/40 window to the mission field.

so that's the backdrop, and i'll fill in the rest of the testimony when my spirit is right.

Now the firewood IS sawed up, and yesterday I got 8/10ths of the dead red elm bucketed up on the porch. You see, I take the tractor, its got a bucket,the wood is on my "up" pasture, and I load the bucket, bring it to the porch, where I removed some railing, and very careful "lay" on the deck...cant dump it, I'll just tear up the porch and we don't want THAT.

now my body's kinda broken, but the Lord gives me the strength....what might take a 25 year old, 15 minutes to do, takes me an hour...so I gotten out there and finish up.

I want to leave you with a song, its not a worship song, but its not ungodly...at all. I think you'll appreciate it, I PRAY Greg doesn't get cross with me...I hope HE likes it!

God bless you all, neil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0sYnro_3Rc

Thanks for the reply brother Neil...will respond fully tonight after work!

Neil writes to Mark,

"in short, you and I would have a pretty good time on this porch, just shooting the breeze, talking, praying, pondering, laughing."

The breeze would probably not the only thing that was getting shot :) I want to pick up on bro Neil talking about such meetings where Jesus was Pastoring through His Holy Spirit. Just this year, back in March, we had a gathering of the saints, brother Mark was there. One of the saints, a seasoned Pastor and a Biblical scholar from South Africa but pastoring in Los Angeles , later reported that is was one of the highlights of his Christian walk.

In those meetings, which were lengthy, typically 9am to 7pm, there was no agenda and no " recognised leader. I think that word recognized is important. It did not mean there was no leaders or leadership, it meant there was no recognized leader. We prayed, we studied Scripture, we discussed and we gathered round and prayed for individuals. I might add that most were fasting so there was no real need to break or organize food and so on. If the saints could do that for 8-10 hours a day, over three days, then meetings that last a mere hour or so would be a breeze. Have we seen anything like it before? Yes, you could find examples of it in history. Has the need ever been greater? I would argue no.

Greg just posted a piece by Steve Gallagher, a good post, where he talks about his belief that we are witnessing the beginning of the great falling away. I agree but I might add that I believe that we are further down that road than many imagine. Point being, we are in a time and place in history that no men have witnessed for the last 2000 years. Knowledge and travel being greatly increased, an ever smaller world in terms of awareness and knowledge of each other. The systems are coming together, they are coalessing. The tolerance of the world for genuine Christianity is running out.

Jesus is coming and the enemy knows it and his time is short and woe to the world because of it. Right has become wrong in a way that it has never been before, denominations and institutions are being swept up into this great darkness. In short, there is a desperate need for saints meeting with Jesus as pastor. It should always have been that way, but now the time is short. I want to encourage the remnant saints, since that s the title of the thread. Find at least two or three others who are lovers of the truth and meet together. This is church and this is part of the Church. It is this love for the truth and this willingness to stand against error that will cause you to be " endure to the end," to be an " overcomer." .................bro Frank

My beloved Mark,

I told you I wanted to testify about one meeting in a house, where my brother Rob and I were given leave by God, to worship Him, with Jesus as Pastor:

I thought it good to be precise, I pray this edifies you, as well as other saints here at SI:

when I came to Walk with Jesus, I was led to an AoG church 30 miles from my house trailer in a hell bound canyon outside Los Angeles called Topanga.

Topanga was ground zero in the "summer of love" 1967, and very hippy, very 'new age'...and never really what I am, but the allure for me in 1989, was that you drove 7 miles up the coast, turned north into Topanga, and it was rural!

I've always preferred to live rural, like I do now, Blessed be the Name! serious, cities are not for me.

Now fast forward 13 years, God was pleased to crush me, and reveal His Son to me and in me in a house trailer on a lonely horse ranch, and as I said I "sat under the feet" of my mentor Pastor Ted, at the AoG church 30 miles away.

in Topanga there was ONE "church", and it was right down the mountain from the horse ranch, a mile down the road, and early in my walk on a Wednesday, before I drove to the Wednesday meeting 30 miles away, I stopped at the Topanga church to visit with the pastor , a dear sweet Godly pastor by the name of Bob. we had a wonderful chat, he like Ted was a few years older than me, i'm easy to talk to I guess, he described the vision he had for the church, and I know he desired that I join the Work. I asked him if I could tarry at the Altar for a bit. "of course"

so I went to the altar, got down on my knees to talk to God, asked him, "why don't I go to this Wednesday night meeting HERE...in Topanga?..this church is so close, I could practically fall out of bed....and go to Church"

The LORD said to me, CLEAR AS A BELL, "You've been doing that your whole life, just falling out of bed and into things...GO TO HOPE!"

Hope was the name of the church 30 miles away, and I meekly obeyed the Master. I was afraid NOT to obey, there was Something in the LORD'S Tone.

(this part of the testimony I want to make short, because its the bad part, of what happened to that church in Topanga, and I want to get to the testimony of that ONE Meeting, where God gave me a glimpse of the template of Worship Sharing with Jesus Pastoring)

The Topanga church was very unhealthy, it was run by a board of mostly horsey set women, wealthy, and I believe it was very slickly set up as a tax dodge....because Pastor Bob wanted a full gospel church...long story short, he lasted MAYBE a year and a half there.

during that year and a half, I met a DEAR brother in the LORD, Rob, my age, his parents were YWAM honcho's, he was an architect, and we bonded in the Holy Spirit. (Today Rob is in the 10/40 window as a "tentmaker"...i'm being vague for security concerns...I miss him)

Rob and I were burdened of prayer, to pray, intercessory. The whole canyon was going to hell, there was all sorts of pagan new agery, there were actual satanic "covens" in the canyon.......a terrible environment for any follower of Jesus, but its the Power of the Lord within us, so it was easy to be a witness, and to Love Jesus without demonic oppression.

So we asked pastor Bob if he was "up" for having a Thursday night intercessory prayer at that building called a church.

No problem, he was one with us...and we had usually five to six saints, the pastor, Rob and me, dear Mother Mimi, a Godly widow, who is now with Lord, and a dear man named Greg.

and we started to pray. (of course no one on the board showed up, but that was okay with me, because the devil was up in their clothing)

However, as I anointed that carpet with hot tears, and we prayed for individual souls, or where ever the Spirit led....you should have witnessed what the devil did to disrupt the Work...slewfoot would actually send in, two or unstable individuals to try and derail the train of Holy Ghost prayer, and I don't even want to recount these sad antics. except to say we prayed thru this nonsense.

so then Pastor Bob got bounced, and I love Pastor Bob, but he did an unadvised and counseled against thing...he sued the church board...the suit lasted for years, and cost him MUCH.

15 to 30 saints left with him to worship at Mother Mimi's house. As I was placed by God 30 miles away, sitting under Ted's mentorship, that is where I stayed, but the Thursday evening prayer night continued at Mother Mimi's.

This work was Precious, if I could write of all the good and pure Things that happened on those Thursday evenings, this post would be too long. Oh my brother, we truly were caught up in high places with God, I soaked that carpet also with my tears. In my humble experience there is no more precious and anointed meeting, then the prayer meeting,when the saints are transacting serious Business with the Lord.

Time goes by, Rob the architect and I would pray privately, and during one of these day long prayer meetings (and fasting) I was attacked by unholy forces....we had started at 8 AM, intending to pray until dark, but at 11AM, suddenly it felt as thru something had threw a spear thru my stomach. At first I thought it was just hunger pangs and praised God that I could "suffer" for the Name, but as time went by, the pain ramped up seriously, and I HAD to lay in my bed...it was so bad, I was groaning in pain, this was 1 PM, after a while Rob left, I was alone...from 2 to 6PM, just groaning as the pain got greater, suddenly I heard the Lord tell me, "neil, go to the hospital NOW"...I was dying.

I called my son's mother to pick me up, I could barely walk to the car, and in the car, I couldn't stop groaning in pain. It felt I had a spear in my belly, but I felt an odd sense of ease, This is the Lord at work...death of body is not bad. my son and his mother were very frightened, i'm sad to say. Pastor Ted met us at the ER, they had to pump, morphine, Demerol, and then finally dilaudid before the pain receded. Pastor stayed with me in that ER from 8PM to 4AM ,when they admitted me,as they didn't "know" what was wrong, finally deciding it was a herniated umbilical area. I was in hospital for six days.

forgive this diversion, but I wrote about it, because it was that day, that discouraged my brother Rob's hope for the evangelization of this hellish canyon, as I was always stout and ready for anything...suddenly laid low by a foul spirit during a prayer session. He announced to me, that he and the family were called to the 10/40 window, and his last meeting at Mother Mimi's house church was 9 Jan 2005, sunday.

of course I was more than sad, but the Spirit of Jesus rules our lives, and I would never nay say that, God forbid.

I had been given visions of this meeting and visions of a different meeting from the Lord, and He put it in my heart to wash my brothers feet, so I called Rob and told him what the Lord laid on my heart, and his heart was filled with joy. I told Rob I was being LED in that direction, but only if God the Holy Ghost gave me leave to do so, would I wash his feet during that meeting.

in the event God said yes, I bought the "implements", one of those large black plastic paint trays, 4 feet long, 3 feet wide, and a foot deep, I bought a dozen cotton hand towels, a dozen cotton larger towels, two half gallon pitchers, and different bottles of sweet smelling liquid soap, lavender,lilac, etc....GOOD soap.

then out of submission, I called Pastor Bob where God was leading me, in regards to possibly washing Rob's feet, should the Holy Spirit give me leave.

Bob's response was to say that he would do a "teaching" on foot washing first. My heart dropped, as I didn't even KNOW if I was to be given release to wash my brothers feet. but I said nothing. When I told Rob what Pastor Bob said, Rob was equally grieved, as he knew what my burden was. You have to remember that at this time, Pastor Bob was involved in a very public lawsuit against the "church" that had fired him....for nothing...they even had hired private security guards. It was a terrible witness, and the ungodly were snickering in their sleeves.

Now we loved Bob as a brother, but more than a few, myself included, begged him previously on the basis of 1st Cor 6, NOT to sue, but to bear the slap, walk away. He didn't listen and to date, has never pastored another church. Bob is the sweetest, most loving saint, you'd ever want to meet, but was lured into this folly.

Now, on the night of Saturday 8 Jan 2005, Topanga was hit by a deluge of rain and wind...what was a dry creek bed, turned into a raging torrent. One luckless soul, a thirty something alcoholic that Rob had been ministered to, drowned in an alcohol fueled dare behind one of the two hell hole bars that night.

as I sat in my house trailer that night, my heart was falling as I thought we would be blessed to get even five souls to show up at Mother Mimi's,as the very hills were collapsing in waves of mud.

I woke up Sunday morning, got the foot washing implements, my Bible, and walked to my car, the rain was a torrent, the wind whipping at 30 mph. it took me 30 minutes to drive the two miles to Mother Mimi's as I had to navigate past the mud slides on my right, and the raging waters of a once dry creekbed.

when I drove into Mimi's driveway, my heart leapt as over 15 cars crowded around her house...I went inside, to be greeted by 30 of my brothers and sisters...and told Pastor Bob wasn't here yet and they were worried. there is only one way into the canyon,and ten minutes before he made his way into the canyon, something happened....here it is, what happened:

http://www.malibutimes.com/news/article_e6282c70-bb69-5c53-b667-7920a324d3b0.html

a 300 ton boulder fell on this road ten minutes before Pastor Bob drove up.

the saints were waiting, and waiting...we did not know this boulder had fell. God was all over me, I stood, and asked the saints if I may speak?....yes.

I said that we were going in a new direction as led by the Lord, I would prayfully ask Jesus to Pastor this meeting, and described the meeting to take place: worship sharing, where all may speak unto the others and the Lord. If you have a song, a Bit of Scripture, a praise report, a testimony, a burden of prayer...speak it, but only two light handed "rules"...only one person speaks at a time, and you may speak twice, only after all have had a chance to speak, if you didn't speak, you would give leave to your brother and sister.

then there was silence, I was standing, the living room was full, saints on couches, chairs, the floor.

then God filled my mouth, as I humbly asked Messiah Jesus to Pastor this humble meeting of hungry saints, I cant remember WHAT i prayed, but i could barely keep from breaking into tears of Love and Gratitude to our Savior.

i went to the edge of the living room, into a foyer, it was the only room left. When i had been praying a hush suddenly came over the room, Jesus was THERE ...with us...that's why when i went into the foyer, i got on my face, and started silently weeping. (my eyes are filling now, as i remember that Day) Jesus was ravishing my soul. there was total silence in the room until one precious sister started to sing, out of hearts memory, "Let My Words be Few"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqIA_l2ypkE

the song started out quietly until everyone joined in, and many saints were weeping as we sung....as this meeting began.

it was almost heaven, there was no disorder, it was supernatural, the saints gave heart testimonies, prayers, wet prayers, bits of Scripture were offered, more songs, sung out of heart memory. i spent most of the time on my face, out of view, worshiping, being one with those praying, accepting Scriptures read aloud as FOOD for my soul.....no disorder, no rancor, perfect Love as Jesus led this meeting.

Then God the Holy Spirit spoke to me, and said "Now"....i looked up at my brother Rob, and said, "brother, may i wash your feet?"....he nodded, smiled and said "yes".

Time had been standing still, it was irrelevant, what happened next was just......of the LORD.....a group of men and me washed Rob's feet, wordlessly, the whole house was silent, then the women took over and washed his wife's feet....and the mysterious thing was nobody told anybody, "men wash mens feet, women wash womens feet"...the LORD put that into our hearts, so that the carnal element would not have any foothold in what had become Holy Ground....and this was all done wordlessly, the only sounds you could hear were the saints weeping, or the occasional "Thank You Jesus"..."i love you Jesus"

and i cannot tell you how "long" this all took, but the last brother who's feet we washed was a precious latino saint who had REALLY been a leader servant during the footwashing....and when it came time to wash his feet?....he start weeping with such force and passion, dying out to self....human words feel inadequate to describe that Day.

Then the Lord gave us release....all the saints had brought dishes of food, and we ate together with glad and merry hearts, marveling at what just happened, which is "God with us".

i THINK i might have left Mother Mimi's at 8 that night, we had been there over 10 hours....nobody WANTED to leave.

i testify that all i have wrote is true in Christ.

i'm sitting here stunned at the 4 in the morning...i pray that some of those who oppose such meetings, can see why my burden is so ardent, as i want more of the Lord Jesus, as i was allowed to see How Jesus Pastors a meeting....to see how all IN Christ are equal, and how desperately there are saints that wish to be included in the service before the Altar of Christ.

May the Grace and the Peace and the Love of Messiah Jesus be with you all, neil