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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus really Die as a Substitute for our Sins?- by Michael Brown

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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

yea i was talking about justafication thats all, sree said they didnt have that under the old but it is a new thing ,,but i see the scripture says abraham was justfied by faith as we are ,i dont have any problem with what you just wrote .

 2014/11/4 19:47Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Unless your saying that we are forgiven apart from faith or that the effects of gods forgivness as we experence it peosonly , are apart from faith ,then i would not agree with that

 2014/11/4 19:50Profile
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 708
San Diego

 Re:

Not to fear, Gary, without faith it is impossible to please God, just as without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

The gospel of John declares the critical message of how one must exercise faith in Jesus over and over again, there can be no doubt that He is looking for faith everywhere, and in everyone.

Only His Holy Spirit can burn in your own heart how overjoyed He is to find faith working there!


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Tom Cameron

 2014/11/4 20:38Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5606
NC, USA

 Re:

quote: "you only need to look at gods judgment in the bible like the great flood to see god righteous judgment is different from the natural man."

Well, in the instance of the flood, God punished evil doers. The better analogy to what took place on Golgotha is if God had killed Noah, who "was a righteous man, blameless in his generation" so He could spare the evil-doers.

But we have little difficulty seeing how that would not be just, at least to Noah. It might be a nice thing to do for the wicked, but not for Noah- even if he agreed to the idea.

You can call what God did with Jesus whatever you want, but you can't call it justice because then you are just re-defining the word. Justice is when a person gets what they deserve- that is, they get what is fair. WE are the ones who deserved to be punished, not Jesus. But Jesus was punished for OUR crimes. It is truly wonderful, and yes he was a substitute, but it wasn't just. That is why some people object to the idea of penal substitution and lean toward Christus Victor because that view takes justice out of the equation.


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Todd

 2014/11/4 21:26Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

if it wasnt justis ,then it must have been unjust

 2014/11/4 21:51Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

maby im taking you out of context ,i mean every thing god does is just and good and righetous so the flood was righeous judment and when Jesus took our punishment the father was just in punishing the son

 2014/11/4 21:57Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Either the action was a righteous action or an unrighteous action a just action or an unjust action ,it was evil or good ,,theres no room for neutral action by god

 2014/11/4 22:01Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 708
San Diego

 Re:

Gary!

God did not punish Jesus! He had no right or reason to punish Jesus whose perfect righteousness made Him immune from the punishment due to sinners.

Rather, God the Father received Jesus' death as a way to pardon sinners who believed into Jesus' death as their death. Jesus willingly gave Himself to that end, choosing to accept death on the cross for the purpose of saving mankind. God the Father could not pardon sin without the sacrifice, and could not put the Son to death- that would be murder and as we all know, murder is against the law.

If there is anything about Jesus I could pinpoint as the reason I love Him with every fiber of my being it is that He chose to die for me, an undeserving sinner, when He did not have to. In the garden of Gethsemane he uttered these words- "Not My will, but Thine be done." He laid down His life that I might live.


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Tom Cameron

 2014/11/4 22:37Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Well that is just dening scripture ,The bible says well Jesus said i will strike the Shepard and the sheep will be scatted referring to what the prophet said when he said strike the Shepard .The chastisement that brought us peace was upon him .He was smitten of god the bible says .It pleased the lord to crush him ..tom ill go with the word of god any day of the week rather then a made up theology suited to water down the Gospel ... ,brother i didnt say Jesus didnt willingly go to his death

 2014/11/4 23:15Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

You know i think a lot of people also ignore the scripture Paul wrote when he was speaking about the roman authority's being gods servants to execute wrath,they dont bare the sword in vain ,but are gods ministers to punish ,it was this very authority that god used to punish is own son ,those writings of Paul also testify that god used the powers that be to accomplish the propitiation


You cant say in one breath that the bible says god has ordained the governing authority's and that there is no authority except from god ,and that authority's are gods ministers to execute wrath and then say ,but that is not that case during the passions of Christ ,its just dening another clear teaching in scripture ,thats blind fold theology

 2014/11/4 23:40Profile





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