SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Has Anyone Read This Book?

Print Thread (PDF)

PosterThread









 Has Anyone Read This Book?

Has Anyone in the forum heard or read a book callef The Kingdom That Turned the World Upside Down by David Bercott.

Would anyone recommend reading this book?

Bear.

 2014/9/8 14:31
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada

Online!
 Re: Has Anyone Read This Book?

I have read it a few times. I appreciate greatly this brothers writings and what he has given to the body of Christ but as a whole I fully do not agree with the volume. In a sense at one point he says that to simply believe on the blood of Jesus Christ is not enough.

The only true way to produce kingdom minded believers who live for Jesus Christ all the time is through the new birth and seeing how precious Jesus Christ is and therefore living in that appreciation of his salvation. To compel people to live a new kingdom through their own repentance and righteousness will never work.

I am not accusing that brother nor those who read this book that the view is strictly the later. There is a mystery in the gospel that it requires something of man constantly, taking up our crosses etc. But the work is also finished by the holy Son of God.

The value of the book outweighs any comments that I have given so I do recommend saints read it if they have come across it. Our goal should not be to go back to 1500's anabaptism but to the early apostles and the faith once given to the saints. The anabaptist where not perfect and some went from the gospel purity going away from it because of the refomers persecuting them, therefore they rejected their theology in part.

John Hus though is for many anabaptist brethren the shining example of their movement and he had the clarity of the gospel in word and deed.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/9/8 14:39Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Has Anyone Read This Book?

The Solid Rock
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name. Refrain:
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand,
All other ground is sinking sand.

When darkness veils His lovely face,
I rest on His unchanging grace;
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.
His oath, His covenant, His blood
Support me in the whelming flood;
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my hope and stay.
When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found;
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.



"The Kingdom That Turned the World Upside Down" by David Bercot p 22 :

Bercot speaking about the hymn writes :
"The only passage in Scripture that speaks of building on the rock instead of on the sinking sand is the passage ... from the sermon on the mount. Jesus made it absoulutly clear that the only way we can build on that rock is to do what He preached in that sermon. His grace is trully unchanging, but he extends it only to those who love and obey him.
Yet this popular hymn totally ignores the very words of Jesus and teaches instead that we build on the rock by simply trusting in Jesus grace and righteousness to cover us - regardless of how we live. And guess who most proffessing Christians choose to believe (1) Jesus Himself or (2) this hymn writer and others who preach a Gospel of easy - believism."



I feel that this great hymn encapsulates the Gospel message not a Gospel of easy - believism.

PS add : "The great thing is not the teaching of Jesus, but what He came to do for the human race, viz., to make the way back to God. It cost Him His life to do it"
Oswald Chambers




 2014/9/8 14:43Profile









 NO ONE WOULD BE SAVED!

“His grace is truly unchanging, but he extends it only to those who love and obey him.”

Let’s see what the bible says.

Romans 5:5-8, “And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Thank God that is the Grace of God that comes to the ungodly and to the sinners. If the Grace of God was only extended only to those who love and obey him – NO ONE WOULD BE SAVED!

 2014/9/8 15:19









 Re:

Then it seems that David Bewcitt is teaching a works righteousness. Would this be correct?

Then does salvation by faith alone in Christ alone play into Anabaptist theology?

Did the Anabaptists really believe one was saved through personal faith in Jesus Christ?

Bear

 2014/9/8 15:19
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "but he extends it only to those who love and obey him."

My argument is always that this is what Jesus and the apostles meant when they used the word "believe."

Belief is not mere mental assent. Jesus made several statements in the form of "unless you... you cannot..."

I don't know anything about Anabaptist theology.

However, believing in Jesus means doing what He says. If you say you believe but do not follow his commands then you do not believe. Some people seem to have the idea that they can BELIEVE in Jesus without being a DISCIPLE of Jesus. Wrongo.

In other words, it is not "works righteousness" to say that someone must actually follow Christ in order to be saved, because that is what believing in Him means.


_________________
Todd

 2014/9/8 15:34Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada

Online!
 Re:


Quote:
Then it seems that David Bewcitt is teaching a works righteousness. Would this be correct?



I don't believe he is but in his desire to ensure people are not easy believism or false converts he is saying almost that you have to obey the commands of jesus to be saved. Rather I would switch it around that to obey the commands of jesus comes from a heart that is saved already by His precious blood. We can never perfectly obey our Lord, we will always fall short in some way that is why Jesus Christ came as the perfect substitute. David Bercot might agree with this fully, in the book that illustration might be extreme for the sake of his point, I know it has offended some.


Quote:

Then does salvation by faith alone in Christ alone play into Anabaptist theology?

Did the Anabaptists really believe one was saved through personal faith in Jesus Christ?




I was trying to point out that the word anabaptist means many things and encompasses many groups during that period of the 1500's during the reformation and beyond. Hutterites, mennonites, amish and many other smaller splinter groups too numerous to name.

Menno Simmons, John Hus and other original founding brethren in those days held to an evangelical view of the atonement. Some anabaptist groups believe the atonement was just a stepping stone for our practical obedience which matters more. Again the views vary greatly within anabaptist circles from my knowledge.

I personally have never heard a more clear gospel call for faith in christ then in a mennonite church, or brethren church in my lifetime and I have been to many reformed churches.



_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/9/8 16:23Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re: NO ONE WOULD BE SAVED!

[edit]

 2014/9/9 0:33Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: Edward Mote



My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.

When darkness veils His lovely face,
I rest on His unchanging grace;
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.

His oath, His covenant, His blood
Support me in the whelming flood;
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my hope and stay.

When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found;
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.

Refrain:
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand,
All other ground is sinking sand.

—Edward Mote (1797-1874)



The name of Edward Mote does not often rest on the lips of the Church today in the same fashion as Fanny J. Crosby, B. B. McKinney, Ira Sankey, or other greats in hymnody. However, the testimony of his life is one that should inspire all Christians. Mote was not brought up in a godly home and did not have the advantage of early exposure to Scripture. In fact, his parents managed a pub in London and often neglected young Edward, who spent most of his Sundays playing in the city streets.1 Of his theological upbringing, he said "So ignorant was I that I did not know that there was a God."2

Eventually Mote became exposed to the Word of God, and was baptized at the age of 18. This event, however, did not send Mote immediately into the ministry. He was apprenticed to become a cabinetmaker, a career which he successfully conducted for another 37 years. Eventually, at the age of 55, he became pastor of a Baptist church in Horsham, Sussex, where he did not miss a Sunday in the pulpit for the next 21 years.3 He resigned from this pastorate in 1873 due to ill health, and died the following year at the age of 77.

It was with this background that Mote wrote the hymn we have today, "The Solid Rock." It was during his career as a cabinetmaker that the hymn came into being. One morning in 1834 as he was walking to work, it entered his mind to write a hymn. By the time he got to work, he had the chorus. He wrote four more verses over the course of that day and two additional verses before he was finished.4

The hymn was published anonymously in several hymn collections before first being attributed to Mote in a collection of approximately 100 of his hymns published in 1837 (Hymns of Praise, A New Selection of Gospel Hymns, Combining All the Excellencies of our Spiritual Poets, with Many Originals). Mote’s original title for the hymn in this collection was "The Immutable Basis of a Sinner’s Hope." The tune "Solid Rock" to which Mote’s words are most commonly set was composed by William B. Bradbury for this text in 1863. An alternative tune sometimes used is "Melita" by John B. Dykes, to which the hymn "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" (i.e., "The Navy Hymn") is commonly sung.

Interestingly, there seems to be some discrepancy surrounding the verses of this hymn. In addition to the four commonly sung verses printed above, Mote composed two others. One source lists the other two as

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
’Midst all the hell I feel within,
On His completed work I lean.

I trust His righteous character
His council, promise, and His power;
His honor and His name’s at stake,
To save me from the burning lake.5

Another writer, however, states that the first line of Mote’s original version read, "Nor earth, nor hell my soul can move."6 Even the verses that are commonly preserved are somewhat in question. For example, the second stanza is often rendered in many modern hymnals with an alternative version of the first line, such as "When darkness seems to hide His face."7 Furthermore, some hymnals alter the word "veil" in the last line to read "vale"8 or "vail,"9 either with or without invoking the alternative first line.

Regardless of the exact version employed, "The Solid Rock" falls firmly into the category of a gospel hymn. Frances Mosher has identified several musical characteristics of gospel hymns which apply to "The Solid Rock."10 The song has a simple melody, a 3/4 meter, and a repeating refrain. Although the term "gospel hymn" is considered distinctively American, with its origins in the camp meetings of the early nineteenth century,11 Mote’s 1836 publication from London contained this term, and this hymn, which certainly qualifies it as one of the earliest gospel hymns.

As to the doctrinal message of the hymn, several key thoughts and phrases qualify it as a "Hymn of Grace." Of course, the chorus itself clearly sets forth the message of grace. The metaphor of Christ as a rock is one with a firm basis in Scripture (1 Cor 10:4), and has been previously described in depth in this feature.12

In the first stanza, hardly a clearer statement of total dependence on Christ could be made. Mote recognizes that our hope for eternal life depends completely upon Jesus’ righteousness, not on some sweet earthly frame. Nothing in this hymn ever hints that any work on our part can add to Christ’s work in order to secure our eternal salvation. However, the hymn is not ignorant of the reality of our daily struggles. In the second and third stanzas, Mote recognizes that there are times when the doubts, cares, and darkness of this world will seem to weaken our fellowship with God and veil His face from us. Even in these times, when "all around [our] soul gives way," God has not left us. Our anchor of faith can still hold in the darkness, knowing through faith that even though not seen (Heb 11:1), He still sustains us. It is at these times that it is most important, in Mote’s words, to "rest on His unchanging grace." It is the immutable, certain promise of God unto salvation that allows us to have assurance even in times of great spiritual darkness. Unlike those who spend times of spiritual struggle doubting their very salvation, those who adhere to the tenets expounded from Scripture by GES rest, with Mote, in the firm knowledge of our destiny.

From a declaration of God’s grace in the first stanza, to the application of that grace in times of trouble in the second and third stanzas, the writer brings his hymn full circle in the final stanza, with the ultimate realization of God’s grace.

This hymn, penned by the son of neglectful pubkeepers in London, has become one of the most beloved gospel hymns in the Church today. Despite some variations in the precise words of the song, the basic message strongly sets forth Christ’s righteousness as the only requirement for salvation, making it very much a "Hymn of Grace."

by K. Ward

 2014/9/19 23:43Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy