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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Jesus Movement vs. The Emergent Church by Steve Gallagher

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yes salvation is by faith, and some people who in never hearing the gospel have an unfruitful mind, can't correct themselves much or share it much. Yet have conscience and intuition. well some of them actually have a type of faith in God as best they can and obey His voice, yet with not much a fruitful mind. These would be the "good" people of the nations. I would list Socrates as one.

“For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.” (Romans 5:7, NASB95)

You must ask yourselves what does God have against a person who obeys their conscience, whether of Jews or Gentiles. If you think God is not going to have mercy on such a "good" person with limited knowledge, you haven't understood God. Because "goodness" actually comes FROM God. As does Love.

If you quote Romans 3:10-18, then please look up all those psalms/references for the correct picture of what Paul was quoting. At the same time Paul was saying "no one good" there were 7000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal.

Jesus said he came into the world to save sinners. It is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. He came not for the righteous, but sinners. Such a person out there who is "good" and "obeys their conscience" in a place not having heard the Gospel, but then having heard the gospel in some future date, they would agree with God's justice because they already know him by faith in their heart, yet without the written Bible. They have a type of faith. Well they would listen to a Spiritually led person, in my estimation. Although the message has power in the words alone also.

““I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.” (John 10:16, NASB95)

But Jesus came to save sinners, but is an encourager of the one doing right. He's not psychotic like some of these doctrines make him seem.

my thoughts

edit: John Piper sermon discusses romans 3

 2014/9/1 13:33

Joined: 2012/9/3
Posts: 41


NoahJD you refuse to submit to the fact that no one is good in the eyes of God. Not Ghandi, not Socrates, not the pope. Until you submit to this truth, you will be fighting against the plain revelation of God's word. If righteousness could come by the law than Christ died in vain.

You quote Romans 5:7 and miss the entire point...

Read the whole thought...For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us...

Paul is demonstrating the amazing love of God by showing that he died for His enemies...there is no such thing as a good person.

Think of the rich young ruler as Jesus gently rebukes his ignorance. Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life. Jesus responds by correcting him and giving him a lesson about mankind. The rich young ruler has no clue that Jesus is God and approached him as a "good" teacher. Jesus says, "why do you call me good, there is none good but God."

 2014/9/1 13:55Profile

 this is the kind of stuff and rhetoric

that just drives me away from certain folke....this quote:

i'm going to break it down into parts, the first part is who talks like this:

NoahJD you refuse to submit to the fact

its just 'christianese"....tightly wound at that, you wouldn't speak like that to him face to face....and we wonder why there is nothing to "make the Gentiles envious"?

lets now deal with the whole quote:

NoahJD you refuse to submit to the fact that no one is good in the eyes of God.

really?.....God IS our Father, right.....and the way, you and others parse it, Our Father doesn't view us as "good"?

H0w many times in the Gospel accounts does Jesus refer to the "good man"?...many.

Now you can counter me, by saying "look at the very Scripture I posted"

you posted One of Three "rich young man" accounts from Luke, I believe, but what does it say in Marks Gospel.....Jesus looked at him and loved him, I paraphrase .

my point?....why do I feel like so many "evangelicals" are hard, and brittle and religioustic? instead of LIVING and BREATHING Messiah, inside'd rather fight, and argue "doctrine" or this ism or that ism.

God requires authentic, and real children, with a simple Faith, loving hearts, both vertical and horizontal.....and yes, we ALL do sometimes stumble and fall short of "good".......but when you fail your human father, and if you are REAL and TRANSPARENT, what do say to him?..."oh Daddy, i'm SO sorry, I fell asleep on the couch and missed the meeting we had at the bank...please forgive me". (just an example)....and then you make it right, because you love dad's gone, so.....

I don't understand some of you around here, I read a lot of posts, and ask, where is the sweetness of spirit?...the love? the authenticity....instead I see religious posturing a the 15 prophets, they had MUCH to say about religious posturing.

Matt, i'm NOT trying to pick on you, believe me, i'm not....that line just disturbed me in spirit and the Eyes of God, we all possess great beauty and preciousness, and THAT is good.

Tell me otherwise, and i'll tell you, to search intently into the Attributes of God. softly, neil

 2014/9/1 15:26


I never said righteousness comes by the law, buy rather I said it comes by faith. and the presupposed people had faith. A good person is good because of his faithfulness. A bad person is bad because of his departure from his conscience (or departure from Law, departure from Faith). So if you obey God you will increase your goodness. Obeying "Law" is different because it doesn't necessarily point to God in faith, unless you seek the Law out of faith.

“But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.” (Romans 6:17–18, NASB95)

“Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and ENSLAVED TO GOD, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.” (Romans 6:21–22, NASB95)

“For Christ is the goal/outcome of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Romans 10:4 NASB ref. note.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is out of faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,” (Romans 9:30–32, NASB95 ref. note.)

“For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”” (Romans 10:5–11, NASB95)

"Who will ascend into Heaven" comes from here, Deut.:

““For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”” (Deuteronomy 30:11–20, NASB95)

Loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and holding fast to Him. that's all faith. not works of Law. which is why the Apostle quotes it.

edit: "loving the Lord Jesus, obeying His voice, and holding fast to him" might be better understood

 2014/9/1 15:35

 Re: this is the kind of stuff and rhetoric

God requires authentic, and real children, with a simple Faith, loving hearts, both vertical and horizontal.....and yes, we ALL do sometimes stumble and fall short of "good".......but when you fail your human father, and if you are REAL and TRANSPARENT, what do say to him?..."oh Daddy, i'm SO sorry, I fell asleep on the couch and missed the meeting we had at the bank...please forgive me". (just an example)....and then you make it right, because you love dad's gone, so.....

excellent point. which is what they are teaching me at counseling. i hate being hard. its wrong.

 2014/9/1 16:13


Dear Noah,

i'm not writing back for you commending me...or so that we can be "right" and they're "wrong".....i'm not doing that.

i'm writing in regards to your counseling, and my prayer for that and of the translation of "Shalom" is "wholeness"...may shalom be over your heart soul, body mind and strength, which is the Peace of God IN Christ Jesus IN you...amen.

ps...I had no intention of joining this thread....I loathe these threads, the 'who's a heretic" thread. I just found that one line WRONG hearted, and missing the I step out, others can "refute and rebuke" me, in their best christianese.

 2014/9/1 16:46


yeah i get it. I don't like the them and us either

the counseling is great. Saturday morning i went in, waiting in the waiting area, and a older women comes out of her session healed of a bone chip/swelling she had from stepping on a small rock barefoot. i was blessed because i am weeping for God to pour out on us. second healing in two weeks, a guy was mentioning

 2014/9/1 17:26

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650


matt wrote:

"So since missionaries will not reach every person do you think there will be a special category of people in heaven who have never heard of Christ but believe in a God of their own understanding?"

Abraham asked this rhetorical question:

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

I happen to believe that He will.

Matt- you are perhaps fortunate to have been born into a country and perhaps even a family where the gospel is prevalent and there is a LEGITIMATE chance to respond to the gospel in an affirmative manner.

Do not pass such judgment on those who are born and live in deepest jungles or hovels in New Delhi or terrorist camps in Syria.


 2014/9/1 19:09Profile

Joined: 2012/9/3
Posts: 41


I'm sorry for my tone but I'm not a very good writer and I will try to communicate in a more gracious manner.

TMK writes, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Of course he will because he is just and that is why people desperately need a savior. God said he wouldn't destroy the city for the sake of 10 righteous, and he destroyed the entire city. There weren't even 10 righteous in an entire city, only Lot and family! Are we to suppose that "good" people exist in foreign lands and will get to heaven without the Lord Jesus Christ? That's against everything in scripture. I think of Lydia in Acts who feared God. What did God do? He sent a preacher, the apostle Paul, to preach the gospel to her.

I'm sorry if my tone isn't as gracious as some like, but by the grace of God I am what I am.

 2014/9/1 19:44Profile

Joined: 2012/9/3
Posts: 41

 Re: this is the kind of stuff and rhetoric

Hez Welling, i'm sorry for offending you with my writing tone. I will try my best to not offend anyone.

 2014/9/1 19:54Profile

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