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helpme
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 6


 Is My Faith In Vain?

I have been extremely depressed for the last few days and I am looking for some answers so please take some time to read (I hope it isn't to hard to understand)

About 3 Days ago, I got into many debates regarding Evolution vs. Creation and everything was going fine until I asked the question "How do you know God exists if you can't see him?" And that question really hurt me, I kept on asking myself questions and trying to answer them and many doubts started to grow and it really nibbled at my faith.
I went to bed and all of a sudden I went into a state of shock/uncertainty and I fear maybe a state of unbelief and I felt like I actually didn't believe with my heart. So I prayed to God and asked that he will increase my faith, I was thinking these thoughts for 4 hours.

Anyway For the last 2 days I have been researching about unbelief and doubt. I have been doing it since 8:00am until about 11:30pm I only stopped to have lunch.

I am so stressed and concerned, because it feels like I have committed a form of apostasy.

and I am sure that we are all aware of the verses in Hebrews about persevering in faith.

There are 2 verses that concern me....
Hebrews 6:4
Hebrews 10:38-39
1 Timothy 5:12

I simply didn't reject Jesus Christ, I just found it hard to believe and I prayed and struggled real hard to believe with a full heart... it very weird because my faith was strong..but this whole "Seeing is believing" thing made things real hard.

According to the bible it seems like you only have 1 shot.




 2005/4/22 7:00Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re: Is My Faith In Vain?

helpme,

Be of good cheer brother, your faith may not in vain.

Charles Spurgeon once used a wonderful illustration - he said that a trembling and weak hand can receive the gift of a golden chain, just as surely as a firm strong hand - the picture being that faith is a commodity that can be weak or strong - but that it's saving efficacy lies not in the -amount- one possesses, but in the fact that one possesses it at all.

Biblically speaking, we do see God - or at least we should - but not with our eyes. Scripture says, Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God (Matthew 5). In John 3:8, Christ, speaking to Nicodemus about those who are born of the Spirit said that the wind blew where it wished, and that you could hear the sound of that blowing, but that you could not tell where it was coming from or going to - and that this was the same way with the Spirit of God. There is a pun in the Greek that doesn't translate well into the English - but the word for wind is the same as the word for Spirit, and the word for sound is the same as the word for voice. The idea is that believers know the "voice of the Spirit" in the same way one might know the voice of the wind - that is, we know what the wind sounds like, and when we hear that sound we know it is the wind. When we see the grass bend, we know the wind has done it. Likewise, when the Spirit does something that only the Spirit can do, we know he is there - this is the witness of the Spirit - that we see God at work in our lives (not that we hear a voice, or feel some sort of confirming feeling). Where there is smoke there is fire - when we see those things accomplished in our lives that only God can do - we are "seeing God" - not with our eyes, but with the eyes of faith, since scripture makes it plain that we do not walk by sight, but by faith.

Faith is not something that is increased by clenching one's teeth and trying to have more of it. While it includes a component of intellectual persuasion, it is not simply assent to a truth - it is trust that the truth assented to will come to pass.

I might know full well that approaching a sheer drop off on a cliff is dangerous, but if the ground is solid, and there is no wind - I can safely walk to the very edge and not fall - I know this with my mind - but I don't -trust- it, so I come within perhaps 6 feet of the edge - just in case I fall. That is the difference between knowledge and faith. I might know the truth, but unless I trust it, it isn't faith.

In your case, I am tempted to comfort you and say, brother you have faith don't worry about it - but I believe it is not my job, (or any other Christian's for that matter) to comfort you about your faith - that is the dominion of the Holy Spirit - He is the one who must witness to your soul that you are saved. If I were able to convince you, all you would have would be my word - and that wouldn't carry you too far ;-)

I will however encourage you with this thought: if your salvation honestly rested on you own ability to save yourself - then none of us could be saved, since scripture says that there are none who seek after God. No one would endeavor to save themselves - and in fact no one does unless God Himself begins a work in us. When God takes us in His hand thus, no person or power can take us out of that hand - not even ourselves (we are certainly not greater than God).

God doesn't carry people half way across a river then give up on them and dump them in - He takes them to the other side. If you are in Christ, you have been raised with Christ already (see Romans 6) - it is a done deal. Our obedience now does not purchase heaven for us (that is works based salvation), it is however the means of our fellowship with God.

Dan
/\/
\/\


_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/4/22 8:18Profile
couch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/29
Posts: 62
College Station, TX

 Re:

Awesome reply brother! I would simply add this one thought:

My wife is lovely, and I enjoy her company very much. I have experienced a relationship with her over time, through a series of wonderful interactions of life.

Now, if someone were to come to me and give me 5 arguments to how my wife didnt exist, I would laugh at them! Furthermore, if they gave me 5 reasons why I didn't have a relationship with her, I would simply smile and point to the ring on my finger.

It's silly to think anyone would say my wife doesn't exist when I've had tangible interaction with her. The same is true for my precious God. When the enemy comes and says "God doesn't exist because x,y,z", I laugh! Why? Because I know that God is, I have experienced Him in various interaction of my life, even when I wasn't seeking Him! But He is, and I can testify that he exists just as my wife does. Even the best arguments in the world don't hold a candle to the blazing sun of reality that Jesus is alive.

Furthermore, when Satan comes and tries to tell me I have no right to stand before God, no reason to believe I'm a child of God - I can let him get to me or I can simply point to the only hope of my heart - the wonderful cross!

I can say, you know, I am unworthy, your right! That is why my hope is in Calvary's love! It is the signature of God's love for me, and I simply point to that. Before long, he is gone, because he hates the cross, the place where "he was made an open spectacle".

From there, I can testify of the Holy Spirit's work to bring freedom in my life, my intimacy with Jesus, and my adoption as a son of the Father. Only by grace through faith.

Don't believe the devil's lies, they are nothing more than vapors overcome by the ocean of God's love. "He who promised is faithful", therefore ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find!

The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life!


_________________
Ryan Couch

 2005/4/22 10:45Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Zac Poonen has a sermon on this site called "a life of faith" - and in it he gives a wonderful example of faith.

He suggests that there are two bridges that cross over a river, one is solid concrete, the other a rickety old tree.

He makes the point that you wouldn't look at the man who walks on the concrete bridge and say, "Oh! Look at that man's profound faith! He is walking on that concrete Bridge!!" - yet the very same man who so confidently walked on the concrete bridge would have no faith in the rickety old tree.

The point is that the faith rests, not in the man - or he could have travelled both bridges with equal surety - but the faith rested on the --quality of the bridge-- !

If we try and grit our teeth and clench our fists in an effort to generate a better, mightier faith - we are totally missing the point of faith. If we doubt, it may not be because we lack faith, it may be because we are looking at ourselves instead of Christ. Is Christ not trustworthy? Instead of looking to ourselves we must look unto Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith.

It was a great sermon, and I think Zac Poonen really brings an encouraging and inspiring message.

Dan
/\/
\/\

edited for clarity


_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/4/22 10:58Profile









 Re: Is My Faith In Vain?

Hello bro

Just for the fact that you are here asking those questions prove that your faith is still intact.

What has happened is that you gave into 4 hours of thinking about these things.

We've heard the saying, "You are what you eat", well you ate some garbage for 4 hours and you are becoming what you ate.

To undo this, you need to vomit that garbage by meditating on the word, what does the word say about God. Mediate on that word for 4 hours and I guarantee you that you will be believing much better than you were before.

But I must warn you, those doubtful thoughts will fight to dominate your meditation on God, but you need to be 'sober minded' meaning you don't allow any kind of wild influence to influence your mind while your meditating.

Think about the times that God has delivered you, saved you, put his Spirit in you, think on these things. And since this debating over creation and evolution has caused your mind to doubt, I suggest to you strongly that you avoid the subject all together and walk away from anyone who brings the subject up. It's not worth trying to prove anything to anyone if satan is using them to bring you down.

Karl

 2005/4/22 11:55
modivarch
Member



Joined: 2005/4/21
Posts: 21


 Re:

hey helpme, these guys have already left some good comforting thoughts. i have had similar time struggling with evolution among many other things. i often have to pray when being attacked by doubts, because they are temptations from satan, why else would there be doubts? ask yourself that. if there were no God/satan conflict than what in the world would cause a doubt? and what would cause that terrible feeling that your losing your faith? all philosophical thinking set aside there is a little verse to be memorized. and i can't think of where it is written (maybe someone else can write that in) but, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding." You've probably heard that one. Isn't that amazing that God knows where we may fail and he says "Don't try to figure me or this world out yourself, just trust in me." wow that is so awesome. I hope that helps, scripture is powerful. In Hebrews the bible says The word of God is full of living power, and it truly is. Hey and let us know how you are coming along, because your not the first to feel some doubt about God.

 2005/4/22 14:00Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: encourage

"helpme",

I am in a hurry but I just wanted to encourage you as well. This past year I have been through alot of suffering and trials. I had to come to grips with death and the "what ifs". A year ago, I was so strong in my faith, writing articles and just thinking that i had such a strong solid faith. But when I had to contemplate death, I had doubts.

What if all this isn't real? What if all I have believed isn't real at all? Will I really go to heaven and how will everything go?

I couldn't believe it. Well, for one it crushed my pride from thinking I had "arrived" at any such spiritual maturity.

It made me study more of His word and learn to lean on His promises. The battlefield of the mind is not a fun one. But God is faithful. You'll see.

You're not lost just because you have doubts. Call on the Lord, be patient. He will answer you. :)

Praying for you!

-Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2005/4/22 14:11Profile
helpme
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 6


 Re: Bad Night

Thank You everybody for your replies.
But Last Night I had a terrible night again, I could'nt get to sleep. I was plagued this time with unbelief....I kept on prayers of faith...but I couldn't feel anything....It felt like unbelief.
I was trying to so hard to believe with the fullness of my heart...but I couldn't.
It feels like I have no faith.

I feel lost because of all of those Bible verses in Hebrews are pretty condemning.

 2005/4/22 17:48Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Hi helpme!

I believe that our Lord will strengthen your faith as never before!

Years ago I read one article about this subject, it is good one. Here you can read it:


[b]"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ..." [/b]

The atheist professor of philosophy paused before his class and then asked one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir," the young man answered.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure? God is good," he said, nervously.
"Is God all powerful? Can God do anything?" the teacher continued.
"Of course He is, He is God."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil" he shuffled.
The professor grinned knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He contemplated for a moment and began again, "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good, not evil!"
"I wouldn't say that," the student objected.
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could...but God doesn't." (No answer from the young student). "He doesn't does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmmm? Can you answer that one please?" (Still no answer.)
The elderly man sympathetically answers his own question as he takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax "No, you can't, can you?"
The professor continued his well conceived discourse, "In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. So, let's start again, young fella. Is God good?" By now, the young man was shamefully on the defensive,
"Err... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No!" He protested.
"Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "Uhh, from... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man proceeded. Running his bony fingers through his thinning hair, he turned to the rest of the smirking student audience. "I think we're going to have a good semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turned back to the Christian. "Tell me son. Is there any evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?" Reluctantly the student responded, "Yes."
"Who created evil?" (No answer) "Is there sickness in this world? Ugliness, immorality, hatred? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"
"Yes." the student squirmed.
"Who created them?" (No answer.) The professor suddenly shouted at the student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closing in for the kill, climbs into the young Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created them, didn't he?" (Again, No answer.)
The student tried to hold his steady experienced gaze, but failed. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is now mesmerized. "Tell me," he continued, "how is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" To dramatize his point, the professor, sweeps his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. He presses more forcefully, "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?" (No answer.)
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" There's a pause.
"Don't you?" The professor leans into the students face again and whispers, "Is God good?" Defeated, the student has no answer. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, young man?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, Professor, I do."
Almost in disgust, the old man shakes his head. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Jesus?"
"No, sir, I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us, have you ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?" (Silence) "Answer me, please!"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in Him?"
"Yes"
"Now that takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling as he begins his final summation. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God does not exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
The student has no answer.
"Sit down, please." The Christian sat down... defeated, ashamed and humiliated.
Within just a few moments, another student raised his hand.
"Professor, may I address the class?"
Proud of his effective rendering of his logical and scientific discertation, the professor turned and smiled. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
This second Christian looked around the room to speak to the whole group. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a few questions for you. Is there such a thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replied, "there's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't," he objected
The professor's grin instantly froze as the room suddenly went very quiet. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat, or no heat, but we don't have another thing called 'cold.' We can hit 485 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we cannot go any further than that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than negative 485‹ you see, sir, cold, is only a word we use to describe the total absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. But cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, it's just the absence of it."
Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom, then the student continued, "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at?"
"So you 'believe' there is darkness?"
"Yes."
"I'm sorry, but science says you're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn't it? That's the word we use to define the meaning of nothingness. In reality, darkness isn't anything. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and place it in a jar. But you can't give me a jar of darker darkness, can you Professor?"
Despite himself the professor smiles at the youth's affrontery before him and thinks to himself, 'this would indeed be a good semester.' "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed at the very start, and so your conclusion must also be in error..."
Hearing this the professor goes toxic. "Flawed? How dare you!"
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?" Now the class began to rumble as they waited in anticipation of the students next words.
"Explain... oh, explain." The professor made an admirable but fialing effort to regain control... Suddenly he is affability itself as he waved his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains, "that, for example, there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad god. You are viewing God as a concept, as something finite... something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death, as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a stative thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man held up a newspaper from the desk of a neighbour, who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, Professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course, there is, now look..." the professor protested. Politely interupting the professor, the student raised his finger into the air and continued, "Again, I'm sorry sir, but you are wrong. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such a thing as injustice? No, injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian paused. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"
Now the professor's face has turned an alarming shade of red. He is so angry, he is temporarily speechless.But the young Christian continued. "If there is evil in the world, Professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if He exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing?"
"The Bible tells us that it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good (the result of the love of God) over evil (the result of independence or the absence of the love of God). There is nothing greater than love. God is love and God is good. If He is good, than the innate act of His goodness would be to give man the opportunity to experience the greatest thing that exists‹love. But love cannot be forced on someone or it is not love. There must be a choice involved. God loved us enough to allow us to make the choice. Evil is the result of the choice of independence from God."
The professor bridled. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognise the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."
"But sir, I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replied. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week. Tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir, or are you placing your 'faith' in the unobservable?" The professor made a sucking noise with his teeth and gave the student a silent, stony stare. "Professor, since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an ongoing endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now have you quite finished?" the professor hissed.
Maintaining his polite demeanor, he student replied: "May I follow up on the point you were making earlier to the other student?"
The professor wisely remained silent.
"I believe you have a great mind Professor, but with all due respect let me ask the class a question regarding it. Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelled the professor's mind?" The class traded glances with quiet grins.
"No one appears to have done so. No one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. While I would not dare to imply it myself... wouldn't the limitations of what you 'believe in' (the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science) say that you have no mind? And wouldn't the same apply to your emotions and your will? I believe your great mind is hidden within your brain although I cannot observe it within the small box, or within the limited parameters with which you wish to place God".
If I want to know your mind, that is, if I want to know the real you (your mind, emotions, will and even your spirit), all I have to do, if you are willing to be known, is be willing to seek to know you and to spend time with you. You can know that God exists... if you are willing... Are you willing, Professor?"


(Silence.)


In the midst of the quiet, the bell rang.
"Class dismissed," announced the professor. "Time is up!"

 2005/4/22 19:05Profile
helpme
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 6


 Re:

Interesting Skit...But I honestly wish I had read it before.

You can surely know why I feel condemned by all of these thoughts of unbelief.
I was certain God was real...but for some unknown reasons I have doubts about Jesus and it turns into unbelief. I pray about it alot.
I don't think you can actually repent of unbelief once you have given your life to God.

[b]HEBREWS 6:4-6[/B]

Quote:
t is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.



[B]Hebrews 10:35-39[/B]
Quote:
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For in just a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."



I'm in deep depression over all of this.
I am afraid to close my eyes or go sleep..whenever I do..unbelief starts to creep into my mind.
I pray and confess my faith to the Lord but then I question whether I really believe.

 2005/4/22 19:38Profile





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