| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Compton posted an exerpt from a Shindler and Spurgeon article. Quote:
"But when, on the other hand, reason has been exalted above revelation, and made the exponent of revelation, all kinds of errors and mischiefs have been the result."
God gave us reasoning ability and we should use it. When people deny their reasoning ability and put literal interpretations of the Scriptures above clear scientific discovery and knowledge THAT is an insult to God. When someone tells me the Grand Canyon was carved out after Noah's flood and not the Colorado river over millions of years, I know that I am not dealing with a reasonable person; I'm dealing with someone completely deluded. SOmeone deceiving themselves and others. Why are they doing this?? Because of their need to continue seeing the Scriptures as a perfect source of all knowledge. Well, the Scriptures are an invaluable source of knowledge about God and His Covenant with the Jews and the birth of Christianity, but it is a lousy source of information on geology and biology. The problem is in trying to make the Scriptures into something more than they are. They are a testimony of God to His people about how to live. That is sufficient for me.
Bubbaguy
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 2005/4/20 9:59 | |
RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
When someone tells me the Grand Canyon was carved out after Noah's flood and not the Colorado river over millions of years, I know that I am not dealing with a reasonable person;
I have seen the Grand Canyon from both north and south rim and wonder how the Colorado river could have even done such a thing. Why is not a canyon carved by the Mississippi or Missouri rivers?
Quote:
When people deny their reasoning ability and put literal interpretations of the Scriptures above clear scientific discovery and knowledge THAT is an insult to God.
Scientist's change their opinions like socks. Darwin is the voice of ignorance and deception the likes of which have never been seen in human history. His falsehood has been a miasma of lies. The fossil record refutes his theory hands down. And natural selection could not possibly account for the infinite complexity of the creation. I have no confidence in a scientist who is willing to look at the evidence and still believe time + chance is the creator. The universe is winding down- not up. The time would fail me to level the doctrine of evolution into nothing. The only way to butruss it is in the courts. I suggest Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" for those who have not read it. It is a good introduction to these things.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/4/20 10:58 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Robert and I will never agree on this, although we agree on much about salvation through Christ. I've read Darwin's Black Box and the only thing I can say is that it is written to disprove a point rather then trying to prove a point. Anybody can tear down.
In any regard, I've beaten this topic to death on this site and already made my points on other threads. Crosscheck resently posted some of these.
One curiousity though. The vast majority of the scientific community including physicians believe in the workings of evolution. This same scientific community produces our medicines, space flight, hubble telescope, and in general has established a base line of information for understanding of our world and universe. We trust these scientists to get things right and, in general, they do. Why is evolution the only theory you contend with? YOu don't dispute gravity or the speed of light or the revolution of the planets around the sun or the mechanics of our physiology or the basis of biology. Why dispute this one particular thing? Because it collides with your interpretation of the Bible. And your interpretation of the Bible has to be correct in order for your salvation. SO you have a personal bias that affects and inhibits your conceptualization of life and your thinking.
My main point on this has to be that you can be a Christian and believe in the Bible and also believe in evolution.
Bubbaguy
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| 2005/4/20 12:00 | |
philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
God gave us reasoning ability and we should use it. When people deny their reasoning ability and put literal interpretations of the Scriptures above clear scientific discovery and knowledge THAT is an insult to God. When someone tells me the Grand Canyon was carved out after Noah's flood and not the Colorado river over millions of years, I know that I am not dealing with a reasonable person; I'm dealing with someone completely deluded. SOmeone deceiving themselves and others.
When people, professing to be spiritual, put their own reason ahead of the revelation of the word of God, that is an insult to God. When someone tells me that his own inner light is more reliable than the testimony of God in the scripture, I know that I am not dealing with a man of faith. I am dealing with someone who is totally earth-bound. Someone who has deluded himself and now wants to delude others.
You don't have to change many words to see why you and I will never have any agreement.
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Ron Bailey
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| 2005/4/20 13:32 | Profile |
philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
One curiousity though. The vast majority of the scientific community including physicians believe in the workings of evolution. This same scientific community produces our medicines, space flight, hubble telescope, and in general has established a base line of information for understanding of our world and universe. We trust these scientists to get things right and, in general, they do. Why is evolution the only theory you contend with?
This question shows how thoroughly you misunderstand the scientific process and method. All the other 'theories' are demonstrably true. By definition, it is impossible to prove that 'darwinian evolution is true'. It is not possible to subject the hypothesis to any scientific test. That is why consistent scientists admit that it is a hypothesis.
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Ron Bailey
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| 2005/4/20 13:35 | Profile |
RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Why is evolution the only theory you contend with? YOu don't dispute gravity or the speed of light or the revolution of the planets around the sun or the mechanics of our physiology or the basis of biology. Why dispute this one particular thing? Because it collides with your interpretation of the Bible.
Evolution is the preferred religious philosophy of the public school system that reigns unthwarted. It is the reference point from which scientific determinations are made. If the reference point is off- the whole structure will be off.
Behe uses the analogy of a mousetrap to prove his point. He shows that a mousetrap has a certain number of components that must exist or the trap cannot function. Take away ANY of the basic components and the machine breaks down. Cells also have a certain number of components that MUST be in place or the machine breaks down. Unless ALL of these components leap into existence at once their is no possibility of life to exist. This is known as [i]irreducable complexity[/i]. When the machine is reduced past a certain number of necessary components- it ceases to function. Case in point- if you go out to your car tonight and pull out the ignition system it will not start (unless it is a diesel engine). So in order for your engine to work it must have 3 things:
1) Fuel
2) Compression
3) Ignition
If any of these are missing or somehow impared you will not start the engine.
Now imagine how complex the human body is. It staggers the mind just to try to think about it. What about trees? What about flowers? And a host of millions of other living organisms that have unique characteristics. every one of them has irreducable complexity. even systems within the body are irreducably complex. Take away one component from your blood stream and your blood will not clot and you will bleed to death.
Many other like things far too numerous to mention.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/4/20 14:05 | Profile |
| | Re: | | You seem to think that I believe that God had little or nothing to do with the development of life on earth. This is incorrect.
Life evolving on earth was rigged by God from the beginning. Thousands of comets, which are made of ice and dust, deposited water on earth during the bombardment. The other basic constitutents of living things -- complex carbon molecules -- arrived on the tails of these comets. Add lightening as a catalyst and there you go.
Far from being improbable, the evolution of life on earth was a foregone conclusion.
Bub |
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| 2005/4/20 14:36 | |
RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Life evolving on earth was rigged by God from the beginning. Thousands of comets, which are made of ice and dust, deposited water on earth during the bombardment. The other basic constitutents of living things -- complex carbon molecules -- arrived on the tails of these comets. Add lightening as a catalyst and there you go.
Far from being improbable, the evolution of life on earth was a foregone conclusion.
Where are the transitional forms? If this is true they would be in as great of abundance as any other common fossil. Yet, Stephen J. Gould admitted that they were not there and made up the theory punctuated equilibria. His theory states that forms went through RADICAL transitions in one generation or so. Personally, I don't have enough faith to believe those theories.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/4/20 15:09 | Profile |
philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Life evolving on earth was rigged by God from the beginning.
Now, Jake, you are either a Darwinian evolutionist or you are not, but you can't have random mutations and the survival of the fittest and an 'earth rigged by God from the beginning'. Time to make your mind up? You can't put 'random mutations' and 'rigged by God into the same sentence'.
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Ron Bailey
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| 2005/4/20 15:12 | Profile |
| | Re: | | God can't use random mutations? Perhaps we see them as random, but they have a purpose and direction.
In order to dismiss evolution, seven day Creationists (I know you are an "old earther" so this doesn't apply to you, Ron) have to dispute many valid scientific findings in fields such as geology. It took millions of years for earths geology to get where it is today. Oil deposits came from where????? Oil deposits are made from ancient living things compressed over millions of years. No serious scientist will dispute this.
Robert, the answer to your question about transitional forms is that it happened through a process called neotony, the retention of juvenile characteristics. Here's a demonstration that I previously linked (but that was a while ago.)
http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Neoteny_in_humans.htm
The Juvenile is the transitional form, not the adult. Each subsequent generation retains juvenile characteristics further into adulthood. Thus transitional forms would not leave much in the way of a fossil record and it would appear that there was no transition, just the appearance of a new animal.
Bub |
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| 2005/4/20 16:23 | |
